Energy prices in Ontario (by the hour)

[MarcoRP]

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Meh. I'd be more interested in cross-referencing the Hourly Ontario Energy Price (HOEP).

Now this is really an interesting question and I would be worried if it turns out to be true. Can we start to collect some data?

Maybe, instead of interfering with the Concord thread we could start gathering info on this thread.

 

[mknox]

At a Supercharger (or any large commercial site), HOEP is only one component of the price. A bigger factor is the utility peak monthly demand charge. At a Supercharger site, the demand charge could dwarf the HOEP component if, for example, all stalls were occupied even for just a short time. The demand would be enormous and even if the station sat empty for the rest of the billing period, that one peak demand would set the charge for the month.

 

[rypalmer]

Now this is really an interesting question and I would be worried if it turns out to be true.

Can we start to collect some data?

If you experience slow Supercharging and can rule out a) a cold battery (limited regen a dead giveaway), b) sharing a charging stack with another stall, and c) state of charge over 50%, please check the HOEP and report back:

Power Data

FYI, the hourly spot price went from $0.00 per kWh at 6am to $0.067 per kWh at 8am and it's projected to be about $0.08-0.09 throughout the day. This doesn't include the Global Adjustment which for January will be in the range of $0.088 per kWh.

 

[mknox]

If you experience slow Supercharging and can rule out a) a cold battery (limited regen a dead giveaway), b) sharing a charging stack with another stall, and c) state of charge over 50%, please check the HOEP and report back:

Curious to know what you are trying to get at here. Are you suggesting Tesla is throttling charge rates as a response to HOEP? Seems very unlikely to me. Demand Response would make a whole lot more sense, and many larger commercial customers already employ DR to help lower their utility bills.

 

[rypalmer]

Curious to know what you are trying to get at here. Are you suggesting Tesla is throttling charge rates as a response to HOEP? Seems very unlikely to me. Demand Response would make a whole lot more sense, and many larger commercial customers already employ DR to help lower their utility bills.

mknox, you're by far the expert here, not I! Throttling based on price doesn't seem too crazy to me though. The data is easily ingestible, and I wouldn't put it past Tesla to have developed some method of limiting their exposure to both high HOEPs and their peak monthly demand charge.

 

[mknox]

mknox, you're by far the expert here, not I!

Just as an FYI, I have worked in the Ontario electricity sector for over 36 years and recently retired from my position as Vice President at a local distribution utility where I oversaw Metering, Billing and Settlement departments (among other areas) for many years. I continue to do consulting work in the sector.

 

[mknox]

Just some quick back of the envelope calculation on demand charges: If a 20-stall site was fully occupied for as little as 15 minutes in a month, the demand could be as high as 1,350 kW (assuming 135 kW per two stalls split between cars). All of the demand charges come to $13.47 per kW, so that translates to a $18,184.50 + $2,363.99 HST = $20,548.49 monthly charge not including any energy (kWh) or other charges. Utilities actually charge by the kVA, so if the power factor is not good, it could be even higher, although this would be an extreme,but not impossible, scenario.

This is the same issue that is killing other vendors trying to install DCFC stations on existing services... the added demand charge can be crippling.

The big savings opportunity is demand reduction. If they can deliver the same number of kWh over twice the amount of time, the kWh fees would be approximately the same (depending on HOEP) but the demand could be cut in half. (Presumably, this is what KSI and others are doing by limiting their DCFC rates).

 

[rpm001]

And it's the property owner that's responsible for the energy/demand pricing, not Tesla. So perhaps they've given them or have some way of controlling to line up with the request of the property owner.

This is all speculation of course, but perhaps it's a combination of both demand and HOEP...

 

[rypalmer]

And it's the property owner that's responsible for the energy/demand pricing, not Tesla

There's no way for us to know that. I highly doubt Cadillac Fairview is footing the energy bill for these massive stations. At best, they are providing free use of the land, but I doubt that too.

 

[SmartElectric]

And it's the property owner that's responsible for the energy/demand pricing, not Tesla. So perhaps they've given them or have some way of controlling to line up with the request of the property owner.

This cannot be the case in Markham, the trench out to the power lines near the major cross road (Highway 7) bypass the power input to the mall. They are straight to the power poles.

I've seen the same trenching to the street poles used at other supercharger sites, including the Levis site when we visited Quebec city during our summer vacation:
Levis, QC Supercharger | Tesla

 

[rpm001]

I guess I'm misinformed then. Or maybe was confusing with destination chargers.

 

[mknox]

And it's the property owner that's responsible for the energy/demand pricing, not Tesla. So perhaps they've given them or have some way of controlling to line up with the request of the property owner.

Pretty much every Supercharger site I've been to has a separate utility service with it's own utility meter. There are probably a few exceptions. These stations' service size would likely dwarf the size of any host's service. A 20-stall Supercharger site would be equivalent to a 600-700 single family home subdivision in terms of power demand.

 

[mknox]

There's no way for us to know that. I highly doubt Cadillac Fairview is footing the energy bill for these massive stations. At best, they are providing free use of the land, but I doubt that too.

The Port Huron, MI Supercharger, in the Hilton DoubleTree parking lot has signs saying that the energy is "supported by" Hilton. Only place I've seen that, and I'm pretty sure it has it's own utility electrical service, separate from the hotel, as well.

 

[mknox]

I guess I'm misinformed then. Or maybe was confusing with destination chargers.

Destination chargers, and even some, if not all of the EVCO DCFC stations are indeed on the hosts's electrical service. Again, there might be exceptions. For example the L2 station at the Stone Road Mall in Guelph has it's own utility supply and meter.

 

[rypalmer]

The Port Huron, MI Supercharger, in the Hilton DoubleTree parking lot has signs saying that the energy is "supported by" Hilton. Only place I've seen that, and I'm pretty sure it has it's own utility electrical service, separate from the hotel, as well.

I've seen these signs at some Ruby Tuesdays, and in South Burlington VT. As you say, though, "support" could mean a lot of things but for sure the host is not providing a sub-panel to feed the SC site from!