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Enthusiast Choice: Used Performance X P90D/P90DL/P100D vs New 100D

Discussion in 'Model X: Ordering, Production, Delivery' started by Vermillion002, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. Vermillion002

    Vermillion002 Member

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    All, I'm very excited to be joining the ranks of Tesla drivers soon. But first I have to clear the entry point hurdle: as a driving enthusiast, do I go with a used performance model or a newer 100D?

    I've been scouring these and the official forums. I've found many great posts that include qualitative and quantitative feedback. But I'm hoping to clarify the day to day road driving experience; I'm not focused on times at the drag strip. I want to ensure that I end up with the right vehicle for delivering a blast of acceleration out of a corner and for making decisive maneuvers on the freeway/highway.

    My target build of a new 100D is around $100k after tax incentives; for +/- $10k, that budget overlaps an older P90D(L).

    I think I have a good sense of the tradeoffs in features/quality, which I'll expand upon in a follow-up post. (Builds have come a long way from the late 2015/early 2016 vehicles, it seems.)

    But what is the P90D really like in comparison? Particularly in its 0-30/30-50/50-70/70-100 ranges?

    Does an insane mode P90D feel substantially more powerful than a normal new 100D set to its sportiest mode? It has the larger motor, after all (though the battery might not be able to feed it as well as one would hope).

    Do you need to step up to the P90DL with Ludicrous engaged all the time to really feel the difference?

    Do refinements in suspension components and build quality (body rigidity) in the 100D make up for the slightly lighter (200lbs) advantage to the P90D?

    Very much looking forward to the discussion and feedback!
     
  2. sidmini

    sidmini Member

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    #2 sidmini, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
    newer 100D will be awesome, it's super quick, some people are getting 0-60 times of 3.6 secs! let me know if you need a referral code for free supercharging!

    I would go with the 100 battery over the 90 battery as they have a different chemistry which means that there is more range loss over time.

    The p90D and the 100d will have no difference in suspension geometry at all the only difference is the larger motor in the P model. The newer cars have improved motors. You might find that the P models have better pick up in all range of speeds including highway. The newer models may have further updates and upgrades (20 minor changes a week) compared to a s/h p90d. It's also likely the performance models would have been raced a bit!
     
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  3. HankLloydRight

    HankLloydRight Fluxing

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    #3 HankLloydRight, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
    Oops.. sorry -- I didn't see you were looking for a Model X.

    Nevermind.
     
  4. P85_DA

    P85_DA Supporting Member

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    I would avoid early build X and the P90d ...there are documented battery issues on the forums ...I have only driven P Tesla’s so I’m partial to that ...I would go for a mid -2017 X P100D personally ...the depreciation hit is taken ..also look st inventory P100s you can get substantial discount as well as tax credit etc if u get now ...from a driving standpoint all these cars are quick P100 , P90 , 100D ..it’s mainly just a budget thing ...the Ps other than diff rear motors don’t have much differentiation like u would get with AMG, M with trim (except early ones has active spoiler ,ventilated seats) ..range difference is not much from a P100 to 100 ..
     
  5. P85_DA

    P85_DA Supporting Member

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  6. animorph

    animorph Member

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    I went from a 2001 Porsche Carrera 4 tiptronic (manually shifted automatic), which was only about a 5.0 sec 0-60 car, to the X 100D. The X is our road trip, cargo, and people hauler car, and I was no longer prioritizing performance, but still wanted a competent handling car.

    I floored the Porsche often enough. My independent Porsche service guy read the OBD info and said I had way more wide-open throttle time than his average customer. I'm not quite as lead-footed now, but the X does get floored on freeway on ramps more than 50% of the time. I'm fine with the performance. Sure I would like more, but I'm not willing to pay P prices for it. The 100D is fun and performs on the freeway very nicely. With "instant torque" and no shifting (always in the right gear), the X accelerates better and easier than the Porsche in normal driving. It steers roughly the same easy way, with a little less feedback but very precise. Great on the freeway. Of course it is a big tall SUV on all-season tires, so hard cornering is not its forte, but given its physical limitations it is still very competent and hasn't surprised me or felt awkward when pushing it a little.

    I think you'd be happy with the X 100D. But...

    We've seen a few 100k+ mile Tesla S's, and they seem to be doing very well. It seems to me that the used Teslas, priced like an ICE that might fall apart at 150k miles, might be a really good deal. I'd expect them to last a longer with good reliability. If that is the case, a used P could be a good deal if you wanted to keep it for a while.

    If you're in 100D territory price wise, I'd stick with the 100 battery over a 90. Seems like the 90 might have some problems (just from reading TMC), and "bigger is always better". If your use case includes any road trips, the 100 will be a little faster charging (being lower in state of charge percentage, and charge taper curve, required to reach the next Supercharger) in addition to its longer range. For strictly local use, a 75D might be fine.

    And for me "newer is always better". Tesla make changes pretty much on-the-fly, so a later build buys you more improvement. All together, I'd prefer a new 100D over a used P100D. I might make an exception if I could find a nearly new inventory P100D with a significant discount.

    Good luck!
     
  7. TexasRat

    TexasRat Member

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    I thought the 100D was only .1 second faster than the 75D, and that the 75D was 0-60 in 4.9s? Shoudn't that put the 100D at 4.8s?
     
  8. P85_DA

    P85_DA Supporting Member

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    Website lists as 4.9(75D) 4.7 (100D) my vote still the same for OP ..get the P lol ..
     
  9. commasign

    commasign Tesla Superfan

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    X 100D is no slouch, but X P100D is next level and will toast just about any car you might run into at the stoplight (except an S P100D). Of course if that’s not something you would ever do, then go with the 100D. ;)
     
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  10. Vermillion002

    Vermillion002 Member

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    Thanks all for the replies so far. Sounds like at least one solid takeaway: Avoid those early P90Ds! I'm guessing that includes pretty much any of the builds from late 2015 through the end of 2016 (when the P100D showed up), because:
    • Battery chemistry is different, some have needed replacement, and some may have been detuned via software to prolong life
    • Battery is 15% lower rated (87kWh vs 102kWh on 100D), so the 100D will be better for road trips and minimizing SuperCharger times/visits
    • AP1 hardware on all but a select few toward the end of the lifecycle
    • Few were coming off the line early on, and according to Wikipedia (Tesla Model X - Wikipedia), "The first Model X that didn't need corrections was made in April 2016."; about 60k cars have been built since 2017, and about 25k were built before the 2017s showed up
    • I had seen the notes about 20 small improvements per week (Musk via MotorTrend https://www.motortrend.com/news/2015-tesla-model-s-p85d-first-test/), so 75k cars later (and roughly 2000 changes over 2 years), the current car should be quite a refinement
    • Any P, especially with Ludicrous, has probably been driven hard over the years
    • And some high mileage examples are probably reaching their 50k mile warranty limit

    As for performance differences, I'm still not sure if a non-L P90D with insane would necessarily feel much faster. Seems Ludicrous required a different inconel fuse and a software update.

    And I was definitely expecting a 100D would be around a 4.7s 0-60 car, not really a 3.7s (even if some examples may do it). There was a recent video showing a Jaguar I-PACE walk away from a 75D and a 100D at the strip (), and the Jag is promoted as a 4.5s car. And yet there was another video comparing a P85D with an uncorked 75D, where the latter held its own fairly well in both rolling starts and from a standstill ().
     
  11. Vermillion002

    Vermillion002 Member

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    @P85_DA Thanks for the suggestion about moving up to a 2017 P100D. The example you brought up really is a great price, and not too much a reach above my range. I'll definitely have to look into inventory cars. In my case, I'm going to need the 7 seat model, though I'm still torn as to whether I need the updated fold flat seats or whether the tilt would be ok to access a car seat in the third row.
     
  12. P85_DA

    P85_DA Supporting Member

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    If I recall non Luda P90 was 3.9 0-60 vs 100D 4.2 ....I have a six seater now and miss the space of fold flat S ...I would avoid any P90 unless absolute steal of a deal <$80k ...if you want fold flat it’s hard to find seven seat inventory as most show rooms have six sweaters as they look nicer ....also as u noted above mid to newer 2017 a lot of changes .
     
  13. sidmini

    sidmini Member

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  14. j-rho

    j-rho Member

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    Something to keep in mind, the handling of the P and non-P cars is basically the same insofar as they’ve been equipped with equivalent wheels/tires.

    As a racer and someone who enjoys corners, I have a feeling there wouldn’t be any real difference until the cars are pointed quite straight. With my regular 100d I regularly get the blinky traction control light (which to be fair is quite smooth and seamless compared to ICE traction control systems) any time I try to power out, even with the AWD. Have a feeling it’s the inside front that spins. That’s on the 20” wheels and Continental tires, might be able to take more throttle on a grippier setup.

    The cars are pretty soft in corners (think, minivan), not sure if anybody makes swaybars or something. A bigger rear bar might help keep the inside front better planted. The regular 100’s straight line performance far exceeds their relative cornering (and, IMO, braking) performance. The P model even more so.
     
  15. Vermillion002

    Vermillion002 Member

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    @j-rho and @animorph Great feedback on comparing cars and cornering performance/behavior.

    I do wonder if the it'll be best to save the cash on the P and put a decent set of tires on a regular 100D.

    I have the Ultra High Performance Summer Michelin Latitude Sport 3s on my wife's Macan S w/ Sport Chrono. That car pulls 1.1g on my local cloverleaf. It was a sight-unseen preorder as the fun family vehicle right before my daughter was born. Worked out well over the last 4 years - the performance limits are quite high and accessible while not compromising much on space. Steering feel is a bit more limited than I'd prefer, but at least it's precise. Straight line is probably very similar to the 100D.

    On the other end of the spectrum, I have a couple of rotaries (without much low-end torque to speak of). A 1995 RX-7 R2 for corner pounding and track duty. Just got a powertrain revamp, though I still need to update the suspension/wheels/tires - small amount of slop in steering until that's done. Still, it's amazingly fast, light, and raw. It was my daily driver 2001-2008 until I got a 40th Anniversary RX-8 (specialized suspension, among other changes) for a longer commute. That car's steering is eerily fast and precise, with plenty of feedback. (I got to spend 10 minutes pounding curves in a Ferrari F430, and when I got back into the RX-8, I couldn't help but grin because of how close they felt - especially for 1/10th the price!) Unfortunately, it's not exactly quick.

    My current daily driver since 1/2015 is a Chevy Spark EV. I needed something to help with the dreaded Bay Area commutes. I'm far faster in the HOV lane than any ICE sports car in the stop and go. And this car epitomizes the old adage "it's better to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow". I treat it like a road-going go kart. I throw it into on/off ramp corners, and consistently get the traction control light to come on (defeat-able, thankfully). It behaves much better after putting performance tires on the front; I wore through the originals after 13k miles. The low speed torque is great, but power definitely tapers off at 30, noticeably further by 50, and is almost gone as it struggles from 70 to its limiter at 90. Still, it's probably the most consistently entertaining car I've ever had. And the Tesla will be replacing it.

    (Though I'll miss the ability to park anywhere and merge into small holes in traffic; I was at the shareholder meeting in June, and Elon mentioned a compact in 3-5 years - I'd be very excited to see some Tesla magic using the Spark EV form factor as a benchmark.)

    The 'P' temptation is strong, but, especially without any suspension/handling level differences, I'll probably end up going with the 100D for the same reason I chose the Macan S over the Turbo.

    As @P85_DA mentioned, there is essentially zero inventory on the P100Ds. My Customer Experience Specialist found one in CA with the 7-seat option. Adjustment is nearly $11k, bringing its total to $139,800. But it's still a $30k leap (and 2nd to last choice color option - tough compromise at these prices)...

    And per @sidmini's note regarding the 3.6s Model S, I wonder if the X is simply going to be tuned safer due to the added weight's impact on the batteries and motors. If we extrapolate the website difference of 0.6s between the two, that'd put the X 100D around 4.2s. That Jaguar I-PACE I mentioned above is quoted as a 4.5s car, but it still pulls away from the 100D. Who knows, maybe Jaguar is being conservative.
     
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  16. TexasRat

    TexasRat Member

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    I kind of went through the same thought process and ended up getting the 75D. My 99% use case involves short trips around town and I never do road trips except maybe once a year going from Austin to San Antonio. I didn't really want to dump an extra 16.5k into a car to basically have the capacity and charge time wasted. I test drove different versions and honestly, I couldn't really even tell the difference between the 75D and the 100D. I mean I could tell, a little bit, where I could make the tires slip a bit if I floored it on the 100D. I found the 75D to be plenty plenty fast around town and I could save a ton of money getting that instead.

    Have you done any test drives? I have taken different Xes out about 5 times over the past 1.5 months and honestly, I'm pretty happy with my decision. I consider myself a car enthusiast but I also was trying to be reasonable about blowing extra money where I didn't need to.

    Another thought you should consider is decreased range w/ the P model since it comes with 22" wheels by default and that takes a small hit on efficiency and ride height. You could always take the savings and apply it to aftermarket wheels or whatever else floats your boat.

    I know you didn't mention it at all as an option, but definitely consider the 75D as well. You'd be surprised how quick it is compared to just about any ICE you've driven. The instant torque is just insane. You can take a 100D on a test drive and force it to be in 75D mode so it's not like you'd need to drive two different cars to get a feel for the difference.

    Anyway, just my .02. If you're happy w/ the 75D, you've just saved yourself potentially $40k over the P :)
     
  17. j-rho

    j-rho Member

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    The Macan S does 13.5 in the quarter mile at 102mph; the 100Ds now do 13.0 at 107-108 (“uncorked”). The Macan Turbo is 12.9 at 106.
    The 100D is pretty soft below 25-30mph and doesn’t really pull hard till 40; it is very strong from 40-75, perfect freeway merging power. It’s bigger than the Spark for sure, but has the oomph to reach holes in traffic.

    In this video the iPace is quicker from a standing start, but the 100D is faster from a roll. P100D smokes ‘em both, hard.

    I’d be interested to hear how things go with stickier tires. In my experience the car seems to cut in the stability control before the tires have really reached their limit. I hear there are different software calibrations for the 22 vs 20” wheels; I suspect the 22” cal may allow for more lateral g before stability controls kick in. If you aren’t towing, might make sense to get one with the 22’s, or have the car calibrated for them. Would be a bummer to add a bunch of grip that couldn’t be used.

    Still, keep in mind, it’s a minivan in its chassis tuning. The low cg helps but roll stiffness is quite low.
     
  18. sidmini

    sidmini Member

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    #18 sidmini, Jul 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
    It's just too big a price jump to justify (to me) I would get the 100D and use the saved money to get some lighter forged aluminium wheels and some nice accessories for the X! I think you would be very happy with the performance, range and cost savings compared to P! Give me a shout if you need a referral code or checkout my profile
     
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  19. GeorgeSymonds

    GeorgeSymonds Member

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    In your rush to push your referral you keep quoting info for an MS not an MX. It’s not helping.

    OP, whichever way you look at it, an MX is a big old lump to go down twisty roads so it depends very much on your definition of enthusiastic driving and the roads you drive on. It’s good, but you may expect better than good and want better. The MS is more nimble but I presume you’ve ruled that out. The P model performance benefits are great in a straight line but no different in corners. A 100D will also close the gap a little over a 90 on the move as SoC goes down more slowly (ie after 50 miles you’ll be under 75% on a P90D and prob still 80% on a 100D).

    Bluntly, I’d say on the MX, I’d take the 100D if I can’t get to a P100D, but I’d avoid the P90Ds, range would be more important for hard drivers. On an MS the P90DL is more viable because of the greater price differential available and better range over the MX
     
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  20. Vermillion002

    Vermillion002 Member

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    @j-rho that 100D/P100D vs I-PACE video puts things in perspective, especially the rolling 50 MPH start where the 100D has a significant advantage on the Jag. Very much had me considering @TexasRat's comments in light of 75D vs 100D highway pull. I rewatched the original I-PACE video I linked. To the mark, the distance between the two MXs was 1/2 a car length. They certainly seemed close in their launches and runs. I'd read in comments on the forum that the 75D really runs out of oomph above 50 MPH, but is that the case? Are the pulls similar to a higher limit, say 75 MPH or even 90 MPH?

    I spent some time on A Better Routeplanner, and the 75D covers pretty much all of my non-roadtrip cases - even the mid-Peninsula down to Monterey and back without a supercharger stop (if I drive conservatively, as @GeorgeSymonds points out I probably won't be doing most of the time ;)). Handling might be better with the slightly lower vehicle weight.

    Anyone have any input on stability control limit calibration, for 20 vs 22 inch wheels or otherwise? And I'm guessing some folks on this forum have found workable lightweight rims that might actually have an impact on handling (or range) :)

    I really need to actually drive one of these things. Had the kids with us in the Palo Alto dealership. At least we got to try out all of the seating configurations, and at 6'1", I even fit in the 3rd row (barely). Kids had a blast!
     

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