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EPA range estimates for Long Range Model 3

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by Troy, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. Troy

    Troy Member

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    Has anybody here seen a source from Tesla that says 310 miles is EPA rated range? I can't find any screenshot or page. Wouldn't it be interesting if this was the range at 65 mph instead of EPA estimate and later on they release a different EPA rated range number like 285 miles? That would be such a controversial move by Tesla. It would be a hell of a way to welcome new customers. Why do they say just 310 miles instead of EPA estimate? See the screenshots here.
     
  2. vinnie97

    vinnie97 Member

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    Controversial would be putting it lightly...
     
  3. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    Manufacturers make their own calculations using the EPA regiment.
    They then submit their estimates to the EPA, which then returns to the manufacturer an official EPA estimate.
    Afaik, Tesla can not legally call it an "EPA estimate" until the EPA makes it official.
     
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  4. Troy

    Troy Member

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    That's a good argument but it doesn't seem to be true. Tesla has always displayed EPA est in the design studio before the number was approved by the EPA. Here are a few examples. The first one is the current Model 3 smaller battery.
    1. 220 mi EPA est, source, Model 3 standard battery
    2. 270 mi EPA est, source, Model S P90D
    3. 210 mi EPA est, source, Model S 60
    4. 200 mi EPA est, source, Model X 60D
    5. 250 mi EPA est, source, Model X P90D
    6. 257 mi EPA est, source, Model X 90D
    7. 220 mi EPA est, source, Model X 70D
    However here, they just say 310 miles, without the usual "EPA est".
     
  5. Reciprocity

    Reciprocity Active Member

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    You cant deliver a car without the EPA numbers in the US without paying a fine. So maybe the 310 is not an estimate, but the 220 still is an estimate because they havnt made a car 220 car yet to get EPA approval.
     
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  6. Troy

    Troy Member

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    #6 Troy, Jul 30, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
    Yes, exactly but I'm still skeptical. We don't know if the 30 cars they delivered were the long range version. Even if they were, we don't know what the window sticker shows. Maybe it shows a different number than 310.

    At this point people might say, it's not like Tesla is going to advertise 310 miles on the website and keep quiet about the EPA rated range until somebody takes a photo of the window sticker and posts it on the Internet? Yes but that is exactly what happened with the Model S P85D.

    When Tesla released the Model S P85D, Tesla's design studio showed "275 miles range at 65 mph" (source). People configured their car, paid their deposit and started waiting for delivery. Tesla didn't say anything about EPA rated range. Eventually, somebody spotted a P85D parked in front of a Tesla building waiting for delivery and took a photo of the window sticker. Here is that photo. It shows 242 miles EPA rated range. Here is a news article about it. This was a big shock to many people.

    I'm not saying the 310 miles number is not EPA rated range. It might be but I find it interesting that they don't mention EPA rated range next to the 310 miles number and we don't know the battery size either.

    My calculations from a few months ago showed 218 mi EPA for Model 3 55 and 285 mi EPA for the Model 3 75. I don't understand how I was only 2 miles off with the Model 3 55 and 25 miles off with the Model 3 75. Of course, it is possible that the battery sizes are not 55/75 but something else, maybe 60/85 like Motor Trend estimates. In that case, Elon's maximum 75 kWh comment here was incorrect.
     
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  7. Reciprocity

    Reciprocity Active Member

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    I see your point, but if we know one thing, the first cars delivered where long range because that is all they are building to start. Another fact is that they would be fined without the EPA approval for each car delivered. Isnt there a site where EPA publishes these numbers? I guess maybe that is a lie and maybe the 310 is a lie, but I think if anything they would be conservative at this point. There are latterly millions of eyes on this product release.
     
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  8. nikeykid

    nikeykid Member

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    Steve Jurveston's 3 shows 214 miles at around 70%, so right around 310

     
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  9. Troy

    Troy Member

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    #9 Troy, Jul 30, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
    @Reciprocity, the EPA website is here. It doesn't show the Model 3 yet. They are always late to update their website.

    @nikeykid, that's a good source. I took a screenshot and measured the pixels. My calculation shows 311 mi range at 100%. So at this point, it looks like 310 is EPA rated range.
     
  10. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    When I click on your source link for the Model 3 standard battery, I get an image of a Model 3 with 310 miles range.

    As I said, before, the EPA has notified Tesla of a month delay.
    It is possible, that the EPA let the smaller battery estimates stand and the longer range is being delayed.
    It is possible there was at one time an error on one of the Tesla web pages.
    Currently when I look at the shorter and longer range Model 3s, neither indicates "EPA est".
     
  11. Troy

    Troy Member

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    @Zythryn, it says 220 mi EPA est on the right half of the image here under coming soon.
     
  12. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  13. SoCalGuy

    SoCalGuy Member

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    In the official video from the launch event, the rendering of the dash shows 315 miles in full charge.
     
  14. Troy

    Troy Member

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    #14 Troy, Jul 30, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
    I know the car shows ~310 miles range but I'm still not sure the 310 miles is EPA rated range. I think it could be something else. Here are a few reasons:

    1. Tesla always says EPA next to EPA rated range numbers. Just check out the Model S and X design studio.
    2. This page has an asterisk next to 220 to explain this is EPA estimated range but no asterisk next to 310 miles.
    3. This photo says "220 mi EPA est" on the right side but just "310 mi" on the left side.
    4. The screenshot below shows 310 mi for AWD and RWD but they both can't have the same EPA rated range because AWD is more efficient.
    5. This page has these bullet points:
    • Range: 220 miles (EPA estimated)
    • Range: 310 miles
    If 310 miles was EPA rated range, it should state the range numbers like this:
    • Range: 220 miles (EPA estimated)
    • Range: 310 miles EPA
    6. Tesla is moving away from naming trim levels after the battery size. Instead, now they are using terms like "Standard range battery" and "Long range battery". However, they will have at least 5 different trim levels:

    Small battery, RWD
    Small battery, AWD
    Large battery, RWD
    Large battery, AWD
    Large battery, AWD, Performance (Confirmed today by Elon here)

    These last 3 cars can't have the same EPA rated range. Tesla might decide to artificially equalize the displayed range numbers in all large battery versions. For example, the Large battery, AWD version might actually have 310 mi EPA. On the other hand, the Performance version might have only 285 mi EPA.

    Therefore the window sticker would show 285 mi but the car would display 310. You might say, Tesla would not create such an artificial range unit. Yes but that's exactly what they are doing in Europe. Teslas in Europe don't display EPA rated range. It is not a selectable option in the settings menu. Instead, they display a range unit called "Typical range". This is something Tesla created. It is not based on any tests.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. zenmaster

    zenmaster Member

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    Looks like we'll have to wait until EPA updates their website or Tesla releases the long-range EPA estimate. I don't see another possibility.
     
  16. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Someone spots a Model 3 with a Monroney sticker?
     
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