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EREVs/EVERs (plug-in hybrids) vs EVs

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by Jay Cole, May 17, 2012.

  1. Dan5

    Dan5 Member

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    I think there is a 5th group- people who have lost all faith in ICE engines after something failed in a critical situation (i.e. got a lemon or numerous lemons, late for work/fired because the tranny went on a relatively new car, arguing over something under warranty that the car manufacturer refuses to cover, lost a body part working on the car, having a baby delivered on the side of the highway because the engine blew up- stuff that really makes you question the reliability and lose faith in current car companies)
     
  2. DuncanWatson

    DuncanWatson Member

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    Agreed. I can understand the Prius, it basically says I want to save money but think gasoline will remain affordable the lifetime of this car. But the Volt starts getting dicey, its range on batteries is low (30-40 miles), so if gas becomes hard to come by then it becomes an expensive proposition. The Nina looks like it will not match the Volt range on batteries. Why would I want that?

    From my point of view it makes no sense getting a car that runs on gasoline now. My cars last me 10+ years, I know gasoline is going to be more expensive every year and the curve will arc upward as we use more tar sands etc. I need to insulate myself from that. And it is stupid to burn gas if you can avoid it as well.

    The Tesla Model S shows that you can get decent range in a nice vehicle. It outperforms all of Fisker's current and planned models. I wait for something more affordable in a 200 mile range to replace my aging TDI wagon and sole car for the family.
     
  3. SoCalGuy

    SoCalGuy Active Member

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    Baby steps

    Supply/demand curves and basic economics will affect electricity prices as well. So, if, for example, every car in America were electric, there would be insufficient generation capacity at present to meet the needs of all those cars (Check EIA for some stats on power gen in the US). Thus, two things would happen: electricity rates would go up - WAY up - and more quick and dirty coal fired and nat gas fired plants would come online. The former would drive inflation up, stagnating economic growth, reducing real wages, etc etc, while the latter would increase pollution and also further exacerbate the mining/NIMBY tension in the US.

    Bottom line is that cars need to become more efficient, regardless of whether they are ICE or e-only powered. Cars should not weigh 2+ tons to move 0.1 tons of passenger matter. Cars need to be lighter (MUCH lighter IMO), more aerodynamic - that is the real path forward toward sustainable transportation in the US. How come most of you here did not support the Aptera? Had a much lower Cd than the Model S and Karma and much more fuel efficient (I had a deposit for 2.5 years before finally pulling because it looked like company was going belly up). If we're being honest with ourselves, we aren't only in this for the fuel economy and greentech. We're in it because right now at least, we want a balance between the conventional and the future. A hybrid if you will, which affords us the benefits of EV tech with the conveniences of conventional tech and design.
     
  4. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    This is not an accurate assessment.
    First, almost all EV charging can/will happen at night. Electricity supply and demand is very sensitive to the time of use and if the additional demand is at peak. At night there is enough unused capacity in the generation system to charge all the EVs we could make in the next ten years if every new car was an EV. The marginal cost for this electricity is a lot cheaper than electricity needed during peak hours and will have a minimal impact on electricity prices.

    Second, charging an EV at night is one of the best possible ways to use renewable wind power, and we can accelerate the use of wind power for this purpose.

    Last, refining oil into gasoline is not an efficient use of energy when compared to running an EV. If we magically stopped refining gasoline the energy input just to refine gasoline could provide electricity to drive EVs more than half the miles driven by passenger vehicles in the US each year.
     
  5. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    Completely agree with the need for efficiency. Most people on this forum did support Aptera, many of us had deposits and/or were waiting for them to produce a vehicle we could buy.
    I agree that many people will be well served by hybrids.
    My EV is replacing my hybrid. I see an EREV hybrid as an EV carrying around an unnecessary gasoline engine which lowers its efficiency and causing extra maintenace hassles.
    If you need the extra flexibility of the EREV and it is worth the penalty - then I am glad that choice is available.
     
  6. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Because it was the wrong way to make an EV. An efficient vehicle does not have to be a three wheeled freak show with extremely limited utility. I predicted it's failure as soon as I saw it.
     
  7. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Ok let's keep this on topic.
     
  8. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    This is a pointless exercise. Every car in the US is not electric. That will take decades giving plenty of time for the infrastructure to keep place with the growth. Same as when television, refrigerator, air conditioner, and home computer and Plasma screen came along.

    Since coal is on the way out, the new generation of generation should be more clean than not.
     
  9. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Active Member

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    The way I look at it, serial hybrids like the Karma and Atlantic add a lot of complexity, weight, and cost, and take away space, performance, and efficiency. Who really wants a vehicle that not only has a battery with a limited life, but also needs oil changes, smog tests, etc. along the way?

    As for hybrids in general, the excavator example from Clayton Christensen's Innovator's Dilemma teaches us that hybrids are just bridges from old to new technology. Eventually, all the cable-driven companies died, even the ones that built hybrids with cables for the heavy lifting and hydraulics for better bucket articulation. In the end, the only ones left standing were the fully hydraulic companies.
     
  10. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    He sure was off on a lot of his theories on the EVs future though. GM has hired him to help them with bringing the Volt to market so I guess he had enough credibility overall.
     
  11. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    Night time charging allows for about 140 million EVs without additional power plants, according to some reports. Night time charging also has the advantage of increasing the utilization of existing power plants, and therefore will reduce at least the average electricity price, if not the price altogether.

    In some cases the marginal power may be coal, but reports say it depends on the utility and locally available power plants. In general, the US average percentage of coal produced electricity went down from 47% to 38%, Jan 2011 vs Jan 2012. Wind is strongly increasing, and solar will as well as solar reaches grid parity more and more. The same EVs which people buy today, will use the higher percentage of clean energy tomorrow.

    EVs are very efficient in general, even if todays batteries increase the price and weight more than they will in the future as battery technology improves, also due to the increasing market volume. Model S has one of the lowest Cd values in the industry, and weight is not more than comparable ICEs due to the use of aluminium. The (honest) reasons for most on this forum include the fun of driving EVs, the support of progress towards clean energy and its use, and to reduce gasoline consumption. Many here who have the possibility also have solar panels, for example, which allow zero emissions today.
     
  12. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    In a paper of mine published this year in Electricity Journal, we show that even if EVs charge some during the daytime (using profiles from various utility studies) that there is ample generation for expected EV growth rates. Even if EVs hit a home run, the generation needs are very modest, particularly given the slow rate of growth in other sectors' demand for power. (that slow growth is not solely about the pokey economy, but also about the adoption of far more energy efficient appliances, lights, etc.)

    If there is any issue about adding a lot of EVs, it's around distribution infrastructure, a problem easily managed by time shifting charging a bit.
     
  13. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    On the weight issue: there is a weight and safety trade off. If all vehicles weighed 500 pounds, driving a 500-pound vehicle would be fine. But given the presence of heavy vehicles, most people choose to drive a car that gives them at least fighting odds of survival in a crash with a truck. Given the current state of materials science, there is nothing that can beat the strength/cost ratio of steel.
     

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