TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Estimated gas savings

Discussion in 'Model S: Ordering, Production, Delivery' started by brianman, Apr 15, 2015.

  1. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Messages:
    15,487
    #1 brianman, Apr 15, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2015
    I've seen some discussion in various threads about the (un)desirability of including "estimated gas savings" in the Order (my.teslamotors.com/models/design) page but what I haven't seen discussed is the actual number.

    Two questions:
    1. Why are they talking about 5 years when the warranties are 4 and 8 years?
    2. Shouldn't the "savings" vary by model/configuration due to the efficiency differences?



























    EPA rate EPA range Battery capacity Configuration
    3.42 mi/kWh 240 mi 70 kWh 70D
    3.12 mi/kWh 265 mi 85 kWh 85
    3.18 mi/kWh 270 mi 85 kWh 85D
    2.98 mi/kWh 253 mi 85 kWh P85D
    If you use the P85D as the baseline, then the value for 70D should arguably be...
    $10,000 * 3.42 / 2.98 = $11,476

    That's a 15% additional savings. No?


    Edit:
    Actually the equation is a bit more complicated...

    Let's assume they really meant "one fifth of the cost" because "5 times lower" is at best confusing language.

    P85D
    2.98 mi/kWh
    335.97 Wh/mi
    $10,000 savings
    $10,000 / (4/5) = $12,500 gasoline cost (equivalent)
    $10,000 / (1/5) = $2,500 electricity cost

    70D
    3.42 mi/kWh
    259.26 Wh/mi
    $2,500 * (259.26 / 335.97) = $1,929 electricity cost
    $12,500 - $1,929 = $10,571 savings

    So 5.7% additional savings.
    Still pretty significant, IMO.
     
  2. mibaro2

    mibaro2 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2012
    Messages:
    958
    Location:
    Georgetown, ON
    Good points.
    I think the general discussion in those threads isn't getting down to the nitty gritty numbers. It is focusing on how unethical or just not good pricing practice it is to include the gas savings.

    By your points, I should save $16000 over 8 yrs since the battery will last 8 years. I think they picked 5 years since people usually sell their car after 5 years (or for those that had a classic S, sometimes less than one year (to get the D ).

    My guess is Tesla likes nice round numbers, so 10k is an easy number to remember.
     
  3. dirkhh

    dirkhh Middle-aged Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2013
    Messages:
    3,645
    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    This whole thing is just garbage.
    Savings compared to which car? Which has which MPG? Based on how many miles driven per year?
    Let's take myself. I had already reserved a BMW 328d when I changed my mind and bought a Tesla. I drove 8k miles a year (I'm driving a lot more in my Tesla(s) - it's just way more fun to drive). How is that going to get me $10k savings?
    People tend to get ~40mpg with the 328d. So 8k miles turns into 200 gallons of diesel or (at current price of about $2.40 per gallon here in Portland) annual spending of $480.
    8k miles @ 3.1 mi/kWh gets me about 2580 kWh assuming no charging loss and assuming that I normally charge at home at 11 cents per kWh gets me $283 in electricity cost.
    So I'd claim I'm saving $200 a year. Or $1k in Tesla's magic 5 years.

    $10k? In your dreams, Elon.

    And yes, I realize these are not cars that most people would compare. But since Tesla doesn't tell me what they are comparing to, I'm comparing the Model S to the car I would have otherwise bought.
     
  4. Jdcleary

    Jdcleary Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2013
    Messages:
    142
    Location:
    Bella Vista, AR
    I am driving 25,000 miles per year and in March of next year when I expect to have my Model X I will have driven 75,000 miles. Sixty nine percent of the miles (69%) have been on trips and comparing it to my previous two Lexus vehicles getting 25 mpg I am saving about $3,300/year on gas or about 10k for the three year period.
    Of course I didn't buy the Tesla to save gas but it is a nice side benefit.
     
  5. Cebe

    Cebe Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2014
    Messages:
    237
    Location:
    Canada
    They could and should do better, but I don't have an issue with the concept of including the savings.

    For example, my math included the previous car getting 14mpg, paying $1.40/liter, driving 10k miles per year, and TOU electricity night time rates being the same fully loaded 11c/kWh, so my savings are more in the $3-4k range per year.

    Average new cars are around 25mpg, rather than 40mpg; average travel is probably more than 8k miles/year, so I can see Tesla math working out. Putting a round $10k is reasonable, but there should be a fine print saying "assuming X mpg, Y miles/year, cost of gasoline, electricity, etc." based on some national average.

    As it is, Canada is showing less savings than US, ($10k CAD ~ $8k USD vs $10k USD) even though gasoline is more expensive up here, new car sales average better mpg and electricity is cheaper.
     
  6. SteveG3

    SteveG3 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,677
    Location:
    US
    I agree. I'm a huge Tesla fan. However, this would be far more palatable as a calculator where you plug in the mpg of the ICE you want to compare to, your assumption of gasoline prices, and the timeframe you want to use for the comparison. To be clear this calculator would not be the most prominent display of the car's cost.

    I actually suspected from the start that Tesla intentionally crossed the line a bit to try to spur some media coverage of it as a sketchy decision, and in the process spread awareness that the cost of ownership is about that of the Mercedes E Class, or BMW 5 series (free advertising).
     
  7. pgiralt

    pgiralt Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,476
    Location:
    Cary, NC
    This is what I think as well. There are so many variables that the 10k number is just meaningless. I plan on having my car at least 7 years and I drive 25k miles per year. Over that time period. I calculated I'll easily save $30k in fuel compared to my previous car which was really the only way I could justify spending so much on the car in the first place. They should use the gas savings to their advantage by allowing users to put real numbers into there and get the TCO price based on how long they plan to keep the car. I really don't like how they just put that $10k in there.
     
  8. brkaus

    brkaus Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    951
    The text below that which is quoted says the base assumptions -

     
  9. CHG-ON

    CHG-ON Still in love after all these miles

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2014
    Messages:
    2,766
    Location:
    Santa Cruz Mountains, USA
    All I know is that my gas cost dropped from 650/mth to 105/mth. So I am happy.

    Yes I am a commute monster. Well...I was until I quit my miserable job. Now I'm just happy.
     
  10. WillAustin

    WillAustin Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2015
    Messages:
    77
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    I currently spend thousands annually on gas. I put 20K-25K miles/year on my cars.
     
  11. dirkhh

    dirkhh Middle-aged Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2013
    Messages:
    3,645
    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    A Tesla might pay for itself in just a few years with mileage like that.
     
  12. WillAustin

    WillAustin Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2015
    Messages:
    77
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    We can hope. :) My 85D is in production right now.
     
  13. exLeaf

    exLeaf Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    56
    Location:
    United States
    Unfortunately no fuel savings for me, 20KM/year, cost of fuel: Tesla - $800, Civic NG - $760.
     
  14. Jaff

    Jaff Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    3,007
    Location:
    Grimsby, Canada
    This is an important issue for Tesla going forward...I think they should be working some computer models now, to come up with an easy and credible way to show benchmark (EV energy) savings vs. the Gen II's ICE competitors...it needs to simply explain the numbers differences to be an effective / compelling sales tool...

     
  15. wcfinvader

    wcfinvader Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    Messages:
    199
    Location:
    Aurora, NE
    If it's just a few years for him then it should just be a couple years for us :tongue:

    WillAustin You'll greatly enjoy this car I promise. High-mileage owners like us are in unique circumstances. No joke a couple months ago we calculated how much gas we would have spent that month if we hadn't had our Tesla and it was literally more than half of our car payment. You should've seen our smiles that day :biggrin:
     
  16. yobigd20

    yobigd20 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2012
    Messages:
    5,793
    Location:
    Skaneateles, NY
    By my calculations somewhere around 400-500k miles the Tesla will have completely paid for itself through gas, toll, and maintenance savings. I'm at 66k miles and have saved around $16-17k already.
     
  17. aronth5

    aronth5 Long Time Follower

    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,435
    Location:
    Boston Suburb
    And anyone who is replacing a Prius or other good mileage car may be in a similar position. The issue isn't if you will save money on gas or how much you save but that Tesla should show the full cost followed by savings.
    Anything else is simply very misleading and tarnishes Tesla's image especially for someone who is not familiar with Tesla.
     
  18. dirkhh

    dirkhh Middle-aged Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2013
    Messages:
    3,645
    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    +100
    I find it so frustrating that a company that is otherwise do admirable does this.
     
  19. CHGolferJim

    CHGolferJim Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    842
    Location:
    Chapel Hill, NC
    To state the obvious and keep it simple: 200,000 miles @ 25mpg @ $4/gallon = $32,000.

    Number to be adjusted by home charging costs (10%-20% depending on home/SC mileage split and cost of electricity), actual mileage of ICE being compared, and higher/lower average cost of premium gasoline over the period. In most cases, at least half of that will be achieved.
     
  20. thegruf

    thegruf Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2015
    Messages:
    944
    Location:
    UK
    You guys in the US make us in the UK and Europe cry with your gas prices for $4 and less.
    We get gas prices more like $9 although it has reduced a bit now to $7.5-$8

    Best thing about that is it does make the Tesla maths much easier especially when you do 25K miles/yr :)

    Add in the 8yr drivetrain warranty and happy motoring ... well when the delivery wait is over anyway.
     

Share This Page