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ETCgreen anti-EV FUD

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by Robert.Boston, Feb 12, 2012.

  1. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    #1 Robert.Boston, Feb 12, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2012
  2. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Who are Emerging Technology Corporation? They seem to be pro-biofuel.
     
  3. GSP

    GSP Member

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    Quite a laundry list of why EVs are unsuitable, and not a good customer choice. Total BS. They try to paint EVs with the Thi!nk "golf cart" stereotype, which really annoys me. As you read on they seem quite desperate to find reasons that "advanced clean diesel" is better. Diesel engines have advanced significantly, and are much cleaner than they used to be, but they can't hold a candle to EVs.

    Who are these guys? They say:

    "The Emerging Technology Corporation (ETC) - Green Division includes Professional Engineers, seasoned Project Managers, Scientists and Researchers in various related disciplines and experienced Field Staff - a total of over 30 committed individuals.* ETC Green and the Emerging Technology Corporation have established relationships with U.S. National Laboratories, USDA, EPA, DoE, NRC, DoI, BLM, DoD, USGS and several universities.* We are active in the development and authoring of new Renewable Energy legislation working with current and past state governors, state and federal legislators, county governments and municipalities."

    They do seem to be professionals, perhaps an older profession than Engineering. :)

    Who funds these "professionals?"

    GSP
     
  4. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Wow, so much FUD I didn't even bother to read more than half of it.
     
  5. ElSupreme

    ElSupreme Model S 03182

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    #5 ElSupreme, Feb 12, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
    Wow that article is bad. My favorite is that they imply that it takes 630kWh to drive 700 miles in an EV. Not 2,200 miles.

    EDIT: Oh and the $9k-$15k transmission replacement after 100k miles. That is rich too. Specially when all the EVs they mention are single speed.

    EDIT: And I always hate that Bio-Fuel hacks never account to how we are going to grow the Biomass. My milk is already expensive enough. Ethanol is making our food prices absurd.
     
  6. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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  7. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    ^ well that URL is a bit of a giveaway...
     
  8. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    I did a cost comparison using the Ampera and a comparable top of the range diesel model from Vauxhall over average vehicle lifetime. Both cars are specced the same and a similar size and performance. This was based on my 14000 miles pa commute.

    evvsicetco.png


    Gives the lie to their claim


    And these guys claim to be influencing policy. Anyone from ABG or GCR care to expose the Emerging Technology Corporation for being a front for a biofuels company?
     
  9. drees

    drees Active Member

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    Bio fuel will never be a large scale solution. It will have it's niches, but electricity from solar is really one of the few long term sustainable solutions available. Only thing keeping solar back now is really price and that is still projected to reach grid parity in large areas of the world by the end of the decade.

    After all - how many of you have PV installed on your roof now that offsets a significant portion of your energy consumption?

    The Biofuel Grind | Do the Math
     
  10. etcgreen

    etcgreen Banned

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    It is not a matter of "dangerous" when an article is accurate - it is honest.
     
  11. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    If it were accurate, it wouldn't be dangerous. But there are a lot of errors in the piece.
     
  12. etcgreen

    etcgreen Banned

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    "Bio fuel will never be a large scale solution."

    This is not correct. Biodiesel from 2nd generation feedstock is the only scalable, sustainable, environmentally friendly and economically viable solution we have to replace petroleum for transportation. Electricity fails in a very long list of ways.

    "It will have it's niches, but electricity from solar is really one of the few long term sustainable solutions available. Only thing keeping solar back now is really price and that is still projected to reach grid parity in large areas of the world by the end of the decade."

    Also, not correct. To manufacture solar panels, one must have rare earth minerals - a great deal of rare earth minerals. The scale you are suggesting simply does not exist on this planet. Also, we have sat across from the engineers for a long list of the solar module manufactures and none of them - not one - have a process or even a plan to recycle these rare earths into new panels.

    Please review: EV's and Hybrids are not our Future - Emerging Technology Corporation, Green Division
     
  13. etcgreen

    etcgreen Banned

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    "I did a cost comparison using the Ampera and a comparable top of the range diesel model from Vauxhall over average vehicle lifetime. Both cars are spec'ed the same and a similar size and performance. This was based on my 14000 miles pa commute."

    I will suggest your test and evaluation was grossly inaccurate in its methodology and parameters.

    "Gives the lie to their claim"

    Just the facts - you need to collect more information about EV's and how they are made, their life cycle, recycling, ...


    "And these guys claim to be influencing policy. Anyone from ABG or GCR care to expose the Emerging Technology Corporation for being a front for a biofuels company?"

    We receive literally hundreds of messages per month from all over the world suggesting that we are backing 2nd generation feedstock sourced biodiesel because we produce and sell the product. Sincerely, we produce and sell 2nd generation feedstock sourced biodiesel simply because it is the only scalable, sustainable, environmentally friendly and economically viable replacement for petroleum available today. The fact that you are making these statements on this blog simply means that you folks have not done the math. The information you need is on the etcgreen.com website.
     
  14. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    #15 vfx, Feb 13, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012

    This is not "honest" today's Tesla could fill on this trip in less than 7,5 hours.
     
  15. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    Very biased and poorly researched article. It's pretty obvious you are pushing diesel and biodiesel products. Can't take your argument very seriously.
     
  16. etcgreen

    etcgreen Banned

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    "Wow that article is bad. My favorite is that they imply that it takes 630kWh to drive 700 miles in an EV. Not 2,200 miles."

    While there are certainly variables based on different vehicles, these numbers were derived from an actual real-world test of a Mini Cooper E.

    "Oh and the $9k-$15k transmission replacement after 100k miles. That is rich too. Specially when all the EVs they mention are single speed."

    Actually, your statement here is twisting the original communication. Have you evaluated the replacement cost of a Prius Hybrid Plug-in transmission? For most EV's, the "transmission" has been replaced by sensor arrays and computers controlling independent motors. Have you evaluated the cost of replacing this I/O control system on a Tesla?

    "And I always hate that Bio-Fuel hacks never account to how we are going to grow the Biomass. My milk is already expensive enough. Ethanol is making our food prices absurd."

    Actually, our website contains a great deal of information about how the world IS growing the 2nd generation feedstock for biodiesel. We are on the same page regarding 1st generation feedstock for biodiesel and ethanol.

    • Ethanol production from any feedstock source is too energy intensive to be viable, ethanol offers a very low energy density, it has an extremely high evaporation factor and it currently off-sets food production on 32M acres of prime U.S. farmland so has a dim future for continued large scale production. [2010 - $310 barrel equiv.]
    • CNG involves high maintenance compressors, a multi-$Trillion distribution system, serious environmental impact for extraction (fracking) and is not only the most volatile (unstable and explosive) transportation fuel, but also has the most volatile price history of any energy source over the past 10 years. CNG is a fossil fuel with a finite volume available. It has little future for achieving large scale production status. [2010 - $75 barrel equiv.; 2008 - $340 barrel equiv.; 2006 - $225 barrel equiv.; Projected 2012 - $160 barrel equiv.]
    • Biodiesel from 1st generation feedstocks (soy, corn, grasses, etc.) offers low yield (less than 100 gallons/acre/year), off-sets food production on over 26 million acres of prime U.S. farmland today so has no long term future for continued large scale production. [2010 - $122 barrel equiv.]
    • Secretary Chu's first major directive in office was to evaluate the "Proverbial Hydrogen Economy". The status report came back in May 2009 and called for $T's more in research, development, execution and a 50 year time line. Funding was canceled and this solution was put on hold indefinitely - a prudent decision. [2010 - several hundred $$ barrel equiv.]
     
  17. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    So soybeans or other biodiesel crops, fall out of the sky? How about all of the energy that is used to manufacture the equipment, diesel/gasoline used in order to harvest it/transport it to the plant. Then more resources for the equipment used to get it to the filling point, and then the equipment used to dispense the stuff. Oh and dispensing biodiesel also uses electricity. Where is this info on your site?

    Talk about inaccurate.
     
  18. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    #19 vfx, Feb 13, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
    This is not "honest" today's Tesla could fill on this trip in less than 7,5 hours.
     
  19. etcgreen

    etcgreen Banned

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    "Very biased and poorly researched article. It's pretty obvious you are pushing diesel and biodiesel products. Can't take your argument very seriously."

    My Staff, and the Staffs of the DoE, DoT, DoD and EPA beg to differ.

    Of course we are promoting biodiesel from 2nd generation feedstock - it is the only solution we have. EV's will not hit a double digit % for transportation in the U.S. within the next 20 years - if ever. Have you read our other article?

    EV's and Hybrids are not our Future - Emerging Technology Corporation, Green Division
     

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