TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

[EU] Powerwall and 3-phase 400VAC

Discussion in 'Tesla Energy' started by widodh, Oct 9, 2017.

  1. widodh

    widodh Model S 85kWh

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    5,788
    Location:
    Middelburg, The Netherlands
    I am looking into building a new house and looking into installing one or two Powerwalls as a backup power source combined with about 15kWp of PV on the roof.

    It however seems that all solutions for the Powerwall are 1-phase and in the Netherlands/Europe the whole grid is 3-phase 400VAC.

    Does anybody know if the Powerwall works with 3-phase installations?
     
  2. wycolo

    wycolo Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    2,681
    Location:
    WA & WY
    > in the Netherlands/Europe the whole grid is 3-phase 400VAC.

    Does this actually extend into residential neighborhoods and/or into each house? Or do they only bring that into commercial buildings like they do in North America?
    --
     
  3. widodh

    widodh Model S 85kWh

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    5,788
    Location:
    Middelburg, The Netherlands
    Extends into the house. My current house as 3x25A 400VAC and runs on that.

    Every house in the Netherlands (with a few exceptions) has 3-phase 400VAC into each house.

    Very, very, very common in Europe, not only NL.

    My Model S charges at 3-phase 3x16A 11kW 400VAC at my house.
     
  4. wycolo

    wycolo Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    2,681
    Location:
    WA & WY
    > 3x25A 400VAC

    Pure envy . :cool:
    --
     
  5. widodh

    widodh Model S 85kWh

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    5,788
    Location:
    Middelburg, The Netherlands
    Understandable ;)

    However, does anybody know if there are Powerwall solutions out there to support this?

    It seems that a Powerwall comes in a AC (with inverter) and DC-only version (without inverter).

    Any DC -> AC inverter which can handle 400V should work right? Multiple powerwalls in parallel and then run them through the inverter which turns it into 400VAC.
     
  6. smithy2167

    smithy2167 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Australia
    Here in Australia, some houses have 3-phase power. Here, it's 415V which is the phase to phase voltage (at 3 x 90A in our house!). However, apart from 3-phase equipment such as large Aircons, the household circuits are wired from phase to neutral which gives 230V.

    We have 10.5kW of PV with a Fronius Symo 10kW 3-phase inverter. We also have a Powerwall 2 AC hooked up to one phase (230V). There is also a 3-phase Gateway that contains a contactor for the backup circuit and also connections for the metering Current Transformers (CT). All 3 phases are monitored by the PW2 with the aim of minimising the net consumption from the grid.

    Our power supply companies use net meters that sum the consumption/feed-in from all 3 phases and only charge for the net total. So, if say one phase is drawing 2kW, another phase 3kW and the 3rd phase with the PW2 is feeding back 4kW, the net consumption that would be charged is 1kW.

    You could also theoretically have three PW2 - one per phase. However, I don't think Tesla have got this setup working properly yet.
     
    • Informative x 1
  7. widodh

    widodh Model S 85kWh

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    5,788
    Location:
    Middelburg, The Netherlands
    Interesting! But does the PW also function as a backup when the power fails? And if it does, it only supplies to one phase, correct?

    So 2/3rd of the equipment doesn't work because the power is out on their phase.

    And I assume you have the AC version of the Powerwall with the inverter build in?

    I found the StorEdge product of SolarEdge: StorEdge™ | SolarEdge

    That uses the DC version of the Powerwall, but it's 1-phase only.
     
  8. smithy2167

    smithy2167 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Australia
    That's right. It only backs up one phase. I had the switchboard re-arranged so the important things (for me) are all on that phase.

    We only get the AC version in Aus. In fact, I thought the DC version was only available in the US.

    I'm not familiar with the SolarEdge. I know that the Fronius Symo Hybrid provides a full 3-phase solution, but currently only supports the Fronius batteries. I was looking closely at that when the DC version of the PW2 was planned, but then that was dropped ...
     
  9. fren

    fren Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2016
    Messages:
    77
    Location:
    france
    in France we have 220/240v single phase
    the 3 phase is for electricity contract for >12kwh i think and still 220/240v ( except for some industry companies of course)
    edit : solaredge is for powerwall 1 , not pw2
    i have solaredge , thought i could plug a pw with storedge .. then pw2 came :p
    now waiting ...hmmm march maybe if lucky to get a pw2
     
  10. widodh

    widodh Model S 85kWh

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    5,788
    Location:
    Middelburg, The Netherlands
    #10 widodh, Oct 10, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
    I contacted SolarEdge and they say their StorEdge product will support 3-phase/400VAC at the end of 2018.

    I hope we will have a DC Powerwall 2 (3?) by then so that I can have about 30kWh of backup power at my yet-to-build home.

    I also just got a call from Tesla in Amsterdam and they told me that in 2018 they will also launch a 3-phase Powerwall. They are working at it right now for the European 3-phase market.
     
    • Informative x 2
  11. Murbs

    Murbs Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    166
    Location:
    Perth Western Australia
    I reserved 3 Powerwalls last year and have just had a site visit. Installation not due till Q1 2018 (Tesla time :rolleyes:). It would be wonderful to think that Tesla will bring out a three phase version of the Powerwall (they could call it PW2.3) before my units finally arrive.
    Are you sure the gateway is three phase or is it just their standard single phase gateway?
     
  12. widodh

    widodh Model S 85kWh

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    5,788
    Location:
    Middelburg, The Netherlands
    I can't answer your last question as I don't know.

    The Tesla rep told me that they are working on a EU-specific version of the PW which has a 3-phase inverter to connect to the grid. I don't have any more details.
     
  13. NicoV

    NicoV Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    801
    Location:
    Zulte, Belgium
    What about a PW with a DC input from the solar panels? Otherwise you still need a 3 phase invertot for the solar panels.
     
  14. nswfugitive

    nswfugitive Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2017
    Messages:
    62
    Location:
    NSW Australia
    Hi - what smithy2167 said was that it is a single phase gateway, but can monitor and net/net usage on the other phases. It will only backup one phase (I personally have a 2phase system and it works as described).
     
  15. nswfugitive

    nswfugitive Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2017
    Messages:
    62
    Location:
    NSW Australia
    I don't know what is on offer from Tesla in the EU, but only the AC gateway/battery is sold here in Australia
     
  16. widodh

    widodh Model S 85kWh

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    5,788
    Location:
    Middelburg, The Netherlands
    Indeed, only the AC version is sold, I can't find the DC version anywhere.

    As I'm not in a rush I'll patiently wait for a PW2/PW3 with 3-phase 400VAC inverter for my to-build house. ETA for the house is Christmas 2019, so I've got some time left.
     
    • Like x 1
  17. NicoV

    NicoV Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    801
    Location:
    Zulte, Belgium
    My house is 20 years old, but I’m not in a rush either. I want to have the best possible integration between PW, solar roof, car chargers and time of use optimisation. I’m choosing Tesla because I think they will ultimately will be able to provide the best integrated system, but reading various threads here I get the impression that they still have to write a lot of software before they achieve this.
    Edit: also waiting for our local government to finalise their time of use / smart metering plans .
     
  18. Tobyw

    Tobyw Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Nj
    Three-phase 230V Power Wall power output would run hobby machine shops and professional ones where 3-phase power is not available or too expensive to hook up. 3-phase AC motors can be run much more efficiently
     
  19. widodh

    widodh Model S 85kWh

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    5,788
    Location:
    Middelburg, The Netherlands
    Yes, but take a look at the topic title, it's about the EU.

    Here in the EU (Netherlands) having 400AC 3-phase 50Hz is the standard. My current house has a 3x40A connection and the default is usually 3x25A.

    All on 400VAC.
     
  20. wwhitney

    wwhitney Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    Messages:
    205
    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    So you have a 3 phase electrical supply at your house, and that is a common arrangement in the Netherlands? That supply would support loads that are 230V single phase (line to neutral), 400V single phase (line to line) or 400V 3 phase. Are all of your household loads 230V single phase, or are there common loads that operate on 400V single phase or 3 phase?

    Cheers, Wayne
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC