[EU] Powerwall and 3-phase 400VAC

[widodh]

I am looking into building a new house and looking into installing one or two Powerwalls as a backup power source combined with about 15kWp of PV on the roof.

It however seems that all solutions for the Powerwall are 1-phase and in the Netherlands/Europe the whole grid is 3-phase 400VAC.

Does anybody know if the Powerwall works with 3-phase installations?

 

[wycolo]

> in the Netherlands/Europe the whole grid is 3-phase 400VAC.

Does this actually extend into residential neighborhoods and/or into each house? Or do they only bring that into commercial buildings like they do in North America?
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[widodh]

> in the Netherlands/Europe the whole grid is 3-phase 400VAC.

Does this actually extend into residential neighborhoods and/or into each house? Or do they only bring that into commercial buildings like they do in North America?
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Extends into the house. My current house as 3x25A 400VAC and runs on that.

Every house in the Netherlands (with a few exceptions) has 3-phase 400VAC into each house.

Very, very, very common in Europe, not only NL.

My Model S charges at 3-phase 3x16A 11kW 400VAC at my house.

 

[wycolo]

> 3x25A 400VAC

Pure envy .
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[widodh]

> 3x25A 400VAC

Pure envy .
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Understandable

However, does anybody know if there are Powerwall solutions out there to support this?

It seems that a Powerwall comes in a AC (with inverter) and DC-only version (without inverter).

Any DC -> AC inverter which can handle 400V should work right? Multiple powerwalls in parallel and then run them through the inverter which turns it into 400VAC.

 

[smithy2167]

Here in Australia, some houses have 3-phase power. Here, it's 415V which is the phase to phase voltage (at 3 x 90A in our house!). However, apart from 3-phase equipment such as large Aircons, the household circuits are wired from phase to neutral which gives 230V.

We have 10.5kW of PV with a Fronius Symo 10kW 3-phase inverter. We also have a Powerwall 2 AC hooked up to one phase (230V). There is also a 3-phase Gateway that contains a contactor for the backup circuit and also connections for the metering Current Transformers (CT). All 3 phases are monitored by the PW2 with the aim of minimising the net consumption from the grid.

Our power supply companies use net meters that sum the consumption/feed-in from all 3 phases and only charge for the net total. So, if say one phase is drawing 2kW, another phase 3kW and the 3rd phase with the PW2 is feeding back 4kW, the net consumption that would be charged is 1kW.

You could also theoretically have three PW2 - one per phase. However, I don't think Tesla have got this setup working properly yet.

 

[widodh]

Interesting! But does the PW also function as a backup when the power fails? And if it does, it only supplies to one phase, correct?

So 2/3rd of the equipment doesn't work because the power is out on their phase.

And I assume you have the AC version of the Powerwall with the inverter build in?

I found the StorEdge product of SolarEdge: StorEdge™ | SolarEdge

That uses the DC version of the Powerwall, but it's 1-phase only.

 

[smithy2167]

That's right. It only backs up one phase. I had the switchboard re-arranged so the important things (for me) are all on that phase.

We only get the AC version in Aus. In fact, I thought the DC version was only available in the US.

I'm not familiar with the SolarEdge. I know that the Fronius Symo Hybrid provides a full 3-phase solution, but currently only supports the Fronius batteries. I was looking closely at that when the DC version of the PW2 was planned, but then that was dropped ...

 

[fren]

in France we have 220/240v single phase
the 3 phase is for electricity contract for >12kwh i think and still 220/240v ( except for some industry companies of course)
edit : solaredge is for powerwall 1 , not pw2
i have solaredge , thought i could plug a pw with storedge .. then pw2 came
now waiting ...hmmm march maybe if lucky to get a pw2

 

[widodh]

I contacted SolarEdge and they say their StorEdge product will support 3-phase/400VAC at the end of 2018.

I hope we will have a DC Powerwall 2 (3?) by then so that I can have about 30kWh of backup power at my yet-to-build home.

I also just got a call from Tesla in Amsterdam and they told me that in 2018 they will also launch a 3-phase Powerwall. They are working at it right now for the European 3-phase market.

 

[Murbs]

Here in Australia, some houses have 3-phase power. Here, it's 415V which is the phase to phase voltage (at 3 x 90A in our house!). However, apart from 3-phase equipment such as large Aircons, the household circuits are wired from phase to neutral which gives 230V.

We have 10.5kW of PV with a Fronius Symo 10kW 3-phase inverter. We also have a Powerwall 2 AC hooked up to one phase (230V). There is also a 3-phase Gateway that contains a contactor for the backup circuit and also connections for the metering Current Transformers (CT). All 3 phases are monitored by the PW2 with the aim of minimising the net consumption from the grid.

Our power supply companies use net meters that sum the consumption/feed-in from all 3 phases and only charge for the net total. So, if say one phase is drawing 2kW, another phase 3kW and the 3rd phase with the PW2 is feeding back 4kW, the net consumption that would be charged is 1kW.

You could also theoretically have three PW2 - one per phase. However, I don't think Tesla have got this setup working properly yet.

I reserved 3 Powerwalls last year and have just had a site visit. Installation not due till Q1 2018 (Tesla time ). It would be wonderful to think that Tesla will bring out a three phase version of the Powerwall (they could call it PW2.3) before my units finally arrive.
Are you sure the gateway is three phase or is it just their standard single phase gateway?

 

[widodh]

I reserved 3 Powerwalls last year and have just had a site visit. Installation not due till Q1 2018 (Tesla time ). It would be wonderful to think that Tesla will bring out a three phase version of the Powerwall (they could call it PW2.3) before my units finally arrive.
Are you sure the gateway is three phase or is it just their standard single phase gateway?

I can't answer your last question as I don't know.

The Tesla rep told me that they are working on a EU-specific version of the PW which has a 3-phase inverter to connect to the grid. I don't have any more details.

 

[NicoV]

I can't answer your last question as I don't know.

The Tesla rep told me that they are working on a EU-specific version of the PW which has a 3-phase inverter to connect to the grid. I don't have any more details.

What about a PW with a DC input from the solar panels? Otherwise you still need a 3 phase invertot for the solar panels.

 

[nswfugitive]

I reserved 3 Powerwalls last year and have just had a site visit. Installation not due till Q1 2018 (Tesla time ). It would be wonderful to think that Tesla will bring out a three phase version of the Powerwall (they could call it PW2.3) before my units finally arrive.
Are you sure the gateway is three phase or is it just their standard single phase gateway?

Hi - what smithy2167 said was that it is a single phase gateway, but can monitor and net/net usage on the other phases. It will only backup one phase (I personally have a 2phase system and it works as described).

 

[nswfugitive]

What about a PW with a DC input from the solar panels? Otherwise you still need a 3 phase invertot for the solar panels.

I don't know what is on offer from Tesla in the EU, but only the AC gateway/battery is sold here in Australia

 

[widodh]

I don't know what is on offer from Tesla in the EU, but only the AC gateway/battery is sold here in Australia

What about a PW with a DC input from the solar panels? Otherwise you still need a 3 phase invertot for the solar panels.

Indeed, only the AC version is sold, I can't find the DC version anywhere.

As I'm not in a rush I'll patiently wait for a PW2/PW3 with 3-phase 400VAC inverter for my to-build house. ETA for the house is Christmas 2019, so I've got some time left.

 

[NicoV]

Indeed, only the AC version is sold, I can't find the DC version anywhere.

As I'm not in a rush I'll patiently wait for a PW2/PW3 with 3-phase 400VAC inverter for my to-build house. ETA for the house is Christmas 2019, so I've got some time left.

My house is 20 years old, but I’m not in a rush either. I want to have the best possible integration between PW, solar roof, car chargers and time of use optimisation. I’m choosing Tesla because I think they will ultimately will be able to provide the best integrated system, but reading various threads here I get the impression that they still have to write a lot of software before they achieve this.
Edit: also waiting for our local government to finalise their time of use / smart metering plans .

 

[Tobyw]

Three-phase 230V Power Wall power output would run hobby machine shops and professional ones where 3-phase power is not available or too expensive to hook up. 3-phase AC motors can be run much more efficiently

 

[widodh]

Three-phase 230V Power Wall power output would run hobby machine shops and professional ones where 3-phase power is not available or too expensive to hook up. 3-phase AC motors can be run much more efficiently

Yes, but take a look at the topic title, it's about the EU.

Here in the EU (Netherlands) having 400AC 3-phase 50Hz is the standard. My current house has a 3x40A connection and the default is usually 3x25A.

All on 400VAC.

 

[wwhitney]

Here in the EU (Netherlands) having 400AC 3-phase 50Hz is the standard. My current house has a 3x40A connection and the default is usually 3x25A.

So you have a 3 phase electrical supply at your house, and that is a common arrangement in the Netherlands? That supply would support loads that are 230V single phase (line to neutral), 400V single phase (line to line) or 400V 3 phase. Are all of your household loads 230V single phase, or are there common loads that operate on 400V single phase or 3 phase?

Cheers, Wayne