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Europe: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase? (Part 2)

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by widodh, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    #1 widodh, Apr 12, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2012
    The original topic can be found here: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase ?

    Since the original topic became a bit large, I'd thought it would be best to open a new topic.

    Yes, the Model S in Europe will support 3-phase charging!

    It was quite a big discussion here on the forum:
    * Should the Model S support 3-phase charging?
    * Is 3-phase better then 1-phase?
    * How should the Model S support 3-phase?

    In fall 2011 a letter was sent to Tesla to convince them to support 3-phase charging for the Model S: Endorse my letter to Tesla for supporting 3-phase charging for the Model S

    At the Geneva Motor Show 2012 it was confirmed by Elon Musk, the Model S in Europe will support 3-phase charging: Twitter

    This was also confirmed by George Blankenship on this forum: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/4941-Future-Charging-for-Model-S-1-phase-or-3-phase/page14?p=120317&viewfull=1#post120317

    Details about the 3-phase implementation have not been made public yet by Tesla. If it will be 3x16A (11kW), 3x32A (22kW) or 3x63A (43kW) is still to be reveiled.

    Please, do continue the discussion here :)
     
  2. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    From what I've heard Tesla will install a third 10kW charger in the Model S and connect each charger to a seperate phase. This way they are using the same chargers globally, making it easier for spare parts.

    This will give the European Model S the possibility to charge with 30kW, at 230V that is 3x40A.

    It could be that they will limit this to 3x32A (22kW) with software due to heat build up inside the car, that is something we don't know yet.

    I personally still think we'll get 3x32A and 3x63A would be something for the Model S 2.0.

    I haven't heard anything about the plug design, I'm only assuming they will change their current design for Europe and add two pins.
     
  3. jcstp

    jcstp Active Member

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    I hope they will make it possible to charge at 3x40A

    I wonder if a 3x63A EVSE can be dialed down to 3x40A by the connectionsignal
     
  4. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    It doesn't need to be, the car will just take 3x40A from it anyway.
     
  5. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Like dpeilow said:

    The EVSE has a maximum of 3x63A, but the car is only capable to charge at 3x40A, so it will only draw 3x40A.

    max current EVSE >= max current car

    If the EVSE is capable if 3x32A and the car can do 3x40A, then the car will draw only 3x32A, since the EVSE dictates how much can be drawn.
     
  6. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    Hopefully they will support delta (230V with no Neutral) three-phase in addition to star/wye (400V with Neutral) three-phase. In Norway we have mostly 230V three-phase. Supporting both should be easy, just autodetect voltage between phases and presense of a Neutral line and connect the chargers accordingly (phase-phase instead of phase-neutral).

    30kW @230V three-phase is 3x75A, 22kW is 3x55A. 3x16A will supply 6.4kW and 3x32A 12.7kW.
     
  7. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    My knowledge doesn't go that far.

    But, if you have 3 seperate single-phase chargers, can you place those in a delta configuration without utilizing the neutral?

    If so, I don't see a problem, since the chargers could handle 200 - 400V thus supporting all European countries.

    P.S.: Upgrade your network! 230V is so 1980! 400V is the future ;)
     
  8. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    #8 eledille, Apr 18, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2012
    Yes. The device can't even know whether it's connected to two phases or phase and neutral - all it sees is 230 V AC, unless it compares them to ground.

    Yes, but they must still be delta connected, instead of wye. This would have to happen automatically. It should not cost a lot, but they would have to actually do it.

    jkirkebo: Come to think of it - would not a wye connection work, only at a lower voltage/higher amps per phase, and at the same total power? The chargers can take down to 110 V, so they should be able to run just fine on 132 V (which is the phase-to-neutral voltage of 230 V 3P). It also depends on the max current rating of the chargers at the lower voltage.

    No, its soo 1920... :p

    We are, but it's very much easier said than done, I'm afraid... I'm actually surprised the conversion to 400 V is progressing as quickly as it is. In my case, to get 400 V, the utility would have to install a new transformer which supplies about 20-25 homes, pull new cables (hopefully there are tubes - otherwise they would have to dig up the whole area to lay new five-wire connections), and replace every fuse panel and meter. Not going to happen.

    But commercial buildings do get upgraded, and wherever they develop a new area large enough for a separate transformer, 400 V is used.
     
  9. linaser

    linaser Member

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    At the anual shareholder meeting, Elon talked a few minutes about the connector that Tesla Motors developed. He was very enthusiastic about their development and I think, that he has some hope, that the Tesla connector will be adopted by the rest of the industry at some point, because it is so much better.

    Now I ask my self, if Tesla Motors will risk this "new standard" by adding a second connector type for the European market. I think it would be much more valuable to Tesla Motors, if they would have developed a connector, that could be used globally.

    So my question is: Do you think, that there is no way, they could reuse the current connector design for 3-phase charging?

    If not, do you have any guesses, how the European connector could look like and if it could be "downwards compatible" to the existing connect0r?

    And do you think, that Tesla Motors will come up with a "world connector" at some point, replacing the current U.S. connector?
     
  10. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Impossible, it's lacking the physical pins to connect L2 and L3.

    Re-design their current connector and add two more pins. The connector will become slightly bigger, but it will be able to connect L2 and L3.

    Why not? If they have a 3-phase connector it can also be used for 1-phase connections, no problem.
     
  11. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    Personally, I do not think Tesla have a real understanding of world electrical standards and until they do they will struggle with a "world connector".
     
  12. linaser

    linaser Member

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    Ok, this may be completely stupid, but hear me out:

    Connector.jpg

    What I know is, that to handle 32A the minimal conductor cross-section is 6 square milimeters.

    What I don't know how big the surface of a connector has to be, to support the same current safely.

    Don't you think, the existing pins could physicality handle the necessary currents?

    If so, it would only be a matter of intelligent communications between the charger and the car to ensure, that the electronic switchboard connects the right things to each other.

    Do you think I'm crazy? :)
     
  13. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    You're crazy! ;)

    If the Model S would want to work with any existing EVSE infra it will need a pilot and proximity connector and with your idea that won't work.
     
  14. linaser

    linaser Member

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    Maybe even more stupid, but it came to me when I thought about the norweginans missing their neutral conductor:

    Connector2.jpg

    The Model S could charge from the three phases without any ground or neutral connector, when you connect each of the three chargers between two phases each.
     
  15. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    Yes... moving to power line comms will take you from a simple and reliable protocol to one that's a nightmare in the real world.... and no, those pins will not handle the necessary current.

    Take a look at the IEC Type 2 connector.... that's the perfect starting point for any future connector standard.
     
  16. linaser

    linaser Member

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    Yes, but the external charger box, could receive the pilot information and convert the data to a proprietary signal, which then is modulated onto one of the phases - like powerline ethernet...

    Ok, I should stop now these crazy considerations and hope, that TM will indeed design a new European connector, that will eventually be adopted as "world connector".
     
  17. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    The Type 2 connector isn't even that much larger then the Tesla connector.

    Problem is: None of the Tesla people seem to have ever touched a Type 2 connector..

    Could be possible, but that would mean you need an external box, which you don't want.

    You want a direct cable from the EVSE into your car without any signal boxes lying around.
     
  18. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    Agreed.... and if they had they might have thought "so what's this three phase stuff anyway"?
     
  19. linaser

    linaser Member

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    Yes, but there already is a box -> see lower left at this picture:

    View attachment 6706
     
  20. linaser

    linaser Member

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    Ok, to stettle this: here's my "world connector" :wink:

    And it's downwards compatible (at least in parts)...

    Connector3.jpg

    (please forgive my crude gimp skills)
     

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