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Europe: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase? (Part 2)

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by widodh, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    No, that is a portable EVSE, it emulates an EVSE signal for the car so that it will charge.

    When you plug into a real EVSE stations there is no need for a such a in-cable box.

    That will work!

    (Btw, Gimp++!)
     
  2. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    You only need this "box" when connecting the car to the 'dumb' wall socket.
     
  3. linaser

    linaser Member

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    Ok, I think, now I get it.

    Thanks a lot for your comments.

    I'm really excited to see, which way TM will go and what kind of connector we'll get for 3 phase charging.

    edit: some typos
     
  4. Mark Petersen

    Mark Petersen Model S EU P71

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    hmm

    just talked to the scandinavian sales manager today
    and Tesla's understanding of supporting 3 phase is not the same as oures
    what I understod is that model S can connect to 3 phase but will not utilice all 3 phase
    if we are lucky it can use 2 phases but not all 3
    but where that is legal or will cause problem as there is no neutral I do not know
     
  5. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    I so hope the sales manager is wrong :confused:
     
  6. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    It´s the same story I´ve been hearing for quit some while from that guy.

    He thinks that just having a Type 2 connector is the same as having 3 phase support.

    I however think that my letter made it clear to Tesla, so I´m still convinced we´ll get true three phase support with the Model S, we just have to be patient.
     
  7. medved

    medved Member

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    Interesting that Tesla has started delivery without resolving this issue first. That only tells me that it is not very important to them. So what would happen if, for example, VIN#10 was sold to Europe?
     
  8. LuckyLuke

    LuckyLuke Model S P85DL

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    All deliveries now are USA only. The first EU cars should be delivered starting dec 2012, so there should be some time for Tesla to work out the 3-phase charging.
     
  9. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    Tesla will not get the full homologation without a certified connector. There is no change to get mono phase with more then 20A.
     
  10. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    I still think Tesla exactly knows what 3-phase charging in the EU means and how they need to implement it.

    Their motor is 3-phase powered, so there is knowledge about this matter inside Tesla.

    I've also heard from multiple sources that they are working on true 3-phase charging, so I still think we're good.

    The story about just connecting on of the three phases from the Scandinavian sales rep has been going around for over a year now.
     
  11. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    I hope your faith is rewarded... it's just hard to imagine how anyone would develop a proprietary connector that doesn't support 3 Phase if they have ambitions to sell cars outside of the US :confused:
     
  12. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    After sending the letter to Tesla and the announcement on the Geneva Motor Show I really can't imagine they think they can get "away" with just connecting one phase.

    I never disclosed this, but I talked with Athlon Car Lease in the Netherlands. They have a reservation for 150 Model S. I also talked to the Icelandic guy who has a reservation for 100 Model S.

    I informed both parties extensively about why they need 3-phase charging to get the Model S working.

    Both never told me if they contacted Tesla about this, but I'm pretty sure that at least Athlon did. >24 hours charging times, that will never sell as a lease company.

    During the Model X reveal a fellow Dutchman talked to the guy who has actually developing the 3-phase charging for the Model S.

    Combining all this together I'm still convinced we'll get true 3-phase charging for the Model S in the EU.
     
  13. medved

    medved Member

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    Yeah, but I don't like the idea of having region specific cars. If that's their goal, I might as well cancel my reservation. Most likely I will need my car in Europe too.
     
  14. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    All cars are region specific in a sense (different regulations in each region). You can still use and charge your US Model S in Europe, it would just be a much slower recharge without the 3 phase charging unless Tesla sets up a Supercharging network in Europe as well.
     
  15. ElSupreme

    ElSupreme Model S 03182

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    There are regulations in Europe and the USA that are mutually exclusive. Headlight requirements being one. You CANNOT make a car that is legal to sell in both areas. They have to be region specific.
     
  16. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    If Model S is able to charge at 3 Phases, it can also modified to charge from the same phase. But it does not work the other way round.
     
  17. medved

    medved Member

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    Exactly. This doesn't have to be region specific. Just make it 3 phase and we will be all happy.
     
  18. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    AFAIK almost every car is region specific. In very few instances will you find a car that is the same in both the US and in Europe (because of differing regulations, a US and a Canada spec car might be different too). The situation will be the same for the standard plugs in BEVs by large automakers (they will offer J1772 in the US and Mennekes in Europe, not something that will support both; this will be true of the DC "Combo" plug too).

    If you are contemplating shipping your car to Europe and you need three-phase support, it is a good idea to wait for the European version. The chances of the US version supporting three phase is virtually nil (because very few people have a three phase connection in their home and there will be literally no public infrastructure that supports three phase charging). They would have to charge US customers extra for something that will be virtually useless for them. It's not a win-win situation.
     
  19. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    So long time no post in this thread. Here in Europe we are jealously seeing US deliveries speeding up. Meanwhile, no news here on pricing, deliveries or on the all-important details of the 3-phase support. I've been thinking a bit about the actual connector-charge port. There are some options here that I think (hope) we can rule out: 1) A separate, second, charge port somewhere else on the car (other side?) 2) Same connector to the car but able to connect to a 3-phase plug however only utilizing one leg (phase) - that would not be 3-phase support so hopefully we can rule that one out as well.

    Also, I am a big fan of Tesla's "one connector fits all" approach - I.e. AC and DC charging via the same plug. Now, as we are all aware of the current plug has only two large dimension connectors together with the smaller signaling connectors (see linaser's pictures above in this thread). Now, to be able to still use the plug for supercharging DC at 90 kW (120kW in the future?) I assume we must keep the dimension of the two big connectors. To have true 3-phase support we need to add two more large connectors (for leg 2 and leg 3 of the system). Now these don't have to be as big as the connectors that are already in place since the leg 2/leg 3 connector will most likely maximally handle 10kW of AC power (each). So the question is: Is it possible to fit these two additional connectors in the already slender plug? Well, electrically speaking, in theory, the plug could be as small as the cross section of the cable, but in reality no contact surface is going to be 100% efficient so because of that, and for safety reasons, you need quite a bigger contact surface than wire cross section area.

    Now, what interests me with regards to the design of the connector is how "two-dimensional" it is. By this I mean that it's just a 90 degree cross-section and the contact surfaces are completely round and flat. In no way does it take advantage of depth = the third dimension = z axis. If you would just cut the connector (and of course the "female" connector on the other end accordingly) at say a 45 degree angle you would have quite some more cross sectional area. If the contact surfaces had an added depth, maybe in the form of flat pins (like the ones on a regular 110V US plug) you could have a lot more contact surface without increasing the cross sectional area. Also, you could let the connectors run in close proximity (just like the wires do in the cable), and instead of separating them so much in the x and y plane, you could separate them in the z plane - i.e. one could be "shallow" and one could be "deep" in the charge port. This would of course add some depth to the whole device, but I would think that would be less of a problem than increasing the cross sectional area of the "hole" in the car and also the cross sectional area of the plug it self?

    Am I doing some kind of fundamental error with these assumptions?
     
  20. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    It will need to be a minimum of 11kW, preferably 22kW and best would be 43kW.
     

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