Europe: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase? (Part 2)

[jkirkebo]

That might be the case in Norway, but in the Netherlands we also have chargers which only have L1 connected.

So you have 16A between L1 and N, 3.6kW.

In Norway L2 is connected on "N" I guess?

Ok, I see the problem. I was thinking of using the UMC, where you can route the two pins on a schuko or CEE connector to the appropriate pins in the car inlet. The UMC wouldn't care which is L1 and which is N on single phase plugs as long as it sees 230V between them.

However if you do have a charging point with a Mennekes-connector this won't work. It could be made to work, but you'd need some kind of adapter or special cable for single phase charging. But are single phase Mennekes charging points very common ?

 

[widodh]

Ok, I see the problem. I was thinking of using the UMC, where you can route the two pins on a schuko or CEE connector to the appropriate pins in the car inlet. The UMC wouldn't care which is L1 and which is N on single phase plugs as long as it sees 230V between them.

However if you do have a charging point with a Mennekes-connector this won't work. It could be made to work, but you'd need some kind of adapter or special cable for single phase charging. But are single phase Mennekes charging points very common ?

Why do you need a adapter to make this work?

If the car senses 230V between L1 and N (in the Mennekes plug!) it will charge on 1-phase.

Does it detect 400V between L1, L2 and L3 it can start drawing from all 3 phases.

All the communication between the EVSE go over the GND/Protective Earth and the Control Pilot cable, so that should work.

I'm assuming the Renault ZOE does the same, since that is also able to charge from a single phase.

 

[jkirkebo]

Why do you need a adapter to make this work?

If the car senses 230V between L1 and N (in the Mennekes plug!) it will charge on 1-phase.

Does it detect 400V between L1, L2 and L3 it can start drawing from all 3 phases.

I was talking about a hypothetical Tesla plug with no Neutral, only L1,L2,L3. This will work for charging on 3-phase if the chargers support 400V, and for single phase from the UMC. It would not work from a Mennekes charging point using a Mennekes-Tesla cable as the Neutral in the Mennekes socket would be connected to nothing. It would have to be rerouted to L2 for single phase charging, thus the need for an adapter or special single phase cable.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

thus the need for an adapter or special single phase cable.

If they just fit a Type 2 "mennekes" socket on the car then nothing special is required anywhere in Europe to charge from AC :smile:

 

[Laumb]

This question might be mainly for my fellow Norwegians.

I have IT 240V 3 phase In my house/Garage.
This means my entire house uses regular N & L (blue and brown) + ground, except the Garage who has all three phases.
How many kw will this Give me for charging the car, and how will it work/which phases provide What? Considering all possible charger combinations.
Don't think About the amperage. Main breaker is 3x63A, and I can easily lay a new cable out.


_____
Tapatalkin' from iTalatut.

 

[jkirkebo]

If they just fit a Type 2 "mennekes" socket on the car then nothing special is required anywhere in Europe to charge from AC :smile:

Of course. But then you need a separate socket for SuperCharging as the Mennekes socket can't take the 250 amps required.
Still, my vote would be for a Mennekes socket on the drivers side and a Tesla socket on the passenger side just for SuperCharging. Gimme a CHAdeMO under the hood too and I'm all set

- - - Updated - - -

This question might be mainly for my fellow Norwegians.

I have IT 240V 3 phase In my house/Garage.
This means my entire house uses regular N & L (blue and brown) + ground, except the Garage who has all three phases.
How many kw will this Give me for charging the car, and how will it work/which phases provide What? Considering all possible charger combinations.
Don't think About the amperage. Main breaker is 3x63A, and I can easily lay a new cable out.

My guess is that 230V three-phase w/o any neutral won't be supported. Then you'd be limited to the max amps you could spare for single-phase charging, my guess is that anything above 32A would cause problems in the long run. Thus you get around 7.4kW or a charge time of 11-12 hours from empty to full. Still fast enough for night charging.

If 230V three-phase actually is supported, you can go 32A three-phase for a total of 12.7kW or ~7 hours from empty to full.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Still, my vote would be for a Mennekes socket on the drivers side and a Tesla socket on the passenger side just for SuperCharging. Gimme a CHAdeMO under the hood too and I'm all set

Agreed, and then you can use any AC/DC charging source that you come across in the wild. In the UK for example, we will have lots 43kW AC, some 50kW CHAdeMO DC, and (maybe) even a few Tesla Superchargers.

 

[widodh]

See this post: Model S Demo-Car rolling in Europe? - Page 6

AndrewBissel reported that Tesla has setup up a charger/EVSE for charging up to a 100km per hour, so that is roughly 22kW.

My 'hope' is that Tesla is undergoing the lack of true 3-phase charging now in Europe. My best guess is that they are drawing about 90A 3-phase, one phase going to each car. A big hotel probably has that to spare.

It COULD also be that they have the 3-phase charger with them and are using the DC inlet on the Model S for testing. They are now field testing to see if that charger works before they actually mount it in the car. Possible?

We will probably have to wait some more time before we see the actual 3-phase capabilities of Model S and the connector they are planning to use. Two ports would be great, then we can also do 43kW AC if the charger supports it.

 

[VolkerP]

The Tesla02 plug is 38mm in diameter (if you can talk of diameter with its shape) but the Mennekes Type2 plug is 55mm in diameter and has a circular cross section with a flattened top.
The question is, will that fit into a second charging port in a taillight flap with the current dimensions? Anyone care to measure the existing opening? Will it fit if the LED lighting ring is omitted?

 

[Johan]

Even if a redesign of the connector with added pins to allow for true 3-phase via the one same connector in theory would be best, I think maybe the most likely option will be either 1) two charge ports (one on each side?)
or maybe (less preferrably)
2) dropping the Tesla proprietary port and istead putting in a 3-phase port that supports up to 43kW AC charging and complies with the new (propsed) SAE connector which also support DC charging of up to 90 kW [200‐450 V DC, up to 90 kW (200 A)] (not quite the 120 kW that Tesla will support with the next level of supercharging).

 

[NielsChr]

sorry for my speeling, hope you get the point about what im trying to say/explain.

My privious EV did have the charge plug inside the trunk (or sort of) not outside - this worked very well. This way the charge port is located in a "safe enviroment" always dry and protected - there is no chance the plugh would be damaged - e.g. a car parked next to it dinging into the charger plug ...(belive me this will happen a lot at public parking)

Instead of modifying the US style plug to support 3 phases - just leave it as it is with 1 phase - instead make a secondary charge plug inside the rear trunk - Tesla could make this any plug type, meneske or what ever fits and support 3 phases.

The reason why I like this placement of the plug (inside the rear trunk), is that you still need a place to store the charge cable while driving - as it is now (with the US style) you will most likely open the rear trunk to store the cable (and adaptors) so you need to open the trunk anyway - might as well in the first place have the plugh in there as well.

doing so would solve some of the problems raised in this thread about how to fit 3 phases in the plug - don't replace the plug, just make one more.... and please inside the rear trunk.

 

[jkirkebo]

I do not agree this is a good solution. CHAdeMO could be ok inside the frunk (NOT inside the trunk), as it is seldom used. A Mennekes-socket is another game completely. I seriously do not want to open the trunk each time I plug in at home, and then having to close it carefully over the cable. It also looks very amateurish.

 

[Johan]

Would the trunk even be able to close completely over the cable???

 

[VolkerP]

Yes. Once.

 

[Johan]

Yes. Once.

Spot. On.

 

[jcstp]

put the chargeport behind the numberplate?

 

[widodh]

put the chargeport behind the numberplate?

You would have to run the cabling through the trunk somewhere.

At this point Tesla has probably already made up their mind.

Referring to your own post: Model S Demo-Car rolling in Europe? - Page 7

Here is an additional exclusive information, three Tesla Model S arrived in Europe this month and passed the TUV tests ... The first EU (press) tests should be possible by the end of the year!

At this point they can't change that much anymore. They have probably sorted it out with 3-phase.

I really hope that they are struggling in the EU now with those demo cars. They should 'suffer' from the lack of having native 3-phase charging!

In the hotel in Munich they might be testing the 3-phase charger externally? The 3-phase charger is now outside the car and feeds the Model S through the DC port.

If that works out the charger goes into the car and we can use it in a couple of months!

 

[AndrewBissell]

90iuhbv
I made a similar suggestion about a year ago hoping Tesla would have made a single world connector. Just want to point out that for these contacts, the relevant figure of merit is the sidewall surface area which varies linearly with the diameter (instead of some cross sectional area, as you suggest, which would vary with the square of the radius).

To a good first order approximation, the contact area is the side of a cylinder given by pi*d*l, where d is the diameter and l is the insertion length. Remember also that the contacts include an additional center pin that further increases the surface area.

View attachment 10961

Quite a while ago I also made a suggestion. There is a large, three pointed void right in the middle of the connector. Could Tesla be planning to put contactor surface on the inside of that and convert the trefoil guide in the socket into an active conductive surface - perhaps in three parts able to carry L1, L2 and L3?

 

[eledille]

I have IT 240V 3 phase In my house/Garage.

Another possibility in addition to those mentioned by jkirkebo is to buy a 230/400 V 3-phase transformer. They're about 10-12k NOK for 28A 230V input, 16 A 400V output. A bit expensive, but not quite as bad as buying new 21'' tires. That would give you 8h recharge times.

I still hope for 230V 3P support.

 

[Aurvandil]

I have IT 240V 3 phase In my house/Garage.
This means my entire house uses regular N & L (blue and brown) + ground, except the Garage who has all three phases.
How many kw will this Give me for charging the car, and how will it work/which phases provide What? Considering all possible charger combinations.
Don't think About the amperage. Main breaker is 3x63A, and I can easily lay a new cable out.

I don't think you have N(eutral) & L(ive) on an IT network. You have three phases into the house, each at 132 V compared to ground and with 120 degrees phase difference. There is no Neutral, just a Protective Earth. Your regular sockets are connected to any two of those three phases, giving a difference of 132 * sqrt(3) = 230 V across. Both wires are Live.

The power you can draw depends on both voltage and amperage. For practical purposes, your choices are probably single-phase 230 V with whatever amperage the wiring and fuse can support, often 16 A max (230 V * 16 A = 3.7 kW), or the three-phase, often limited to 20 A (230 V * 20 A * sqrt(3) = 8 kW).

You might be able to rewire to higher amperages, but will run into the limitations of the connectors. You will need a different kind of socket, like the one on your kitchen stove. That will get you to 25 A (230 V * 25 A = 5,75 kW - if you can find an adapter for that weird socket).

I think the blue industrial CEE connectors go to 16 A single phase (3,7 kW) and 32 A three phase (230 V * 32 A * sqrt(3) = 12,7 kW - as jkirkebo also pointed out). That is probably the highest you can go from a wall socket.

A 400 V 16 A transformer as suggested by eledille could be a good idea, depending on what Tesla decides to implement. Look at Noratel - transformer, reactor and power supply