Europe: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase? (Part 2)

[Johan]

Ok I have some more clarification, I called the rep. again and spoke to him:
1) The inlet on the car will be different, to support 3-phase. It will either be a new design by Tesla or it might be a Mennekes type 2 inlet.
2) The other end of the cable will likely have a Menneks type 2 male plug. If you are not plugging in to a Mennekes type 2 outlet, then there will be quite simple (and safe and allowed) adapters to plug in to regular CEE 3-phase outlets.

The big question then is if the contactors on the regular Mennekes type 2 connector are large enough to support 90kW DC over two of them (Supercharging). If they are I would guess Tesla goes with a type 2 inlet on the car, if not they will make their own inlet.

 

[Eberhard]

Type 2 supports max 3x63A AC = 44kW or 140A 500V DC = 70kW or they are using this ugly COMBO

best

Eberhard

 

[widodh]

Ok I have some more clarification, I called the rep. again and spoke to him:
1) The inlet on the car will be different, to support 3-phase. It will either be a new design by Tesla or it might be a Mennekes type 2 inlet.
2) The other end of the cable will likely have a Menneks type 2 male plug. If you are not plugging in to a Mennekes type 2 outlet, then there will be quite simple (and safe and allowed) adapters to plug in to regular CEE 3-phase outlets.

The big question then is if the contactors on the regular Mennekes type 2 connector are large enough to support 90kW DC over two of them (Supercharging). If they are I would guess Tesla goes with a type 2 inlet on the car, if not they will make their own inlet.

Well, you just spoiled everything! This is the same information I got, but I didn't want to disclose it yet since they asked me to.

From what I understand they are looking at using the Type 2 connector as the input connector instead of the Tesla connector. SuperCharging will be done (if they get it done) by combining N+L1 and L2+L3 and sending the DC power over those pins.

I highly doubt if they can simply make a Type 2 -> CEE adapter, there has to be some electronics in between there, like the UMC I also thought that European regulations prohibited 3-phase charging without a fixed EVSE.

 

[VolkerP]

WRT charger architecture, I understand Johan's post that the dual charger setup looks like this for 400V TN grid:

Each charger draws up to 32A, yielding 12,8kW. This might be tuned down a little to control the excessive heat load.
I find it confusing that both AC circuits with 32A add to an effective 32A current in the shared L1 leg . But so appears to be.

discuss anyone?

 

[Johan]

WRT charger architecture, I understand Johan's post that the dual charger setup looks like this for 400V TN grid:
View attachment 14392

Each charger draws up to 32A, yielding 12,8kW. This might be tuned down a little to control the excessive heat load.
I find it confusing that both AC circuits with 32A add to an effective 32A current in the shared L1 leg . But so appears to be.

discuss anyone?

Can't the two chargers be in parallell, on all three legs symmetrically? In effect each charger being a 3x3.3 kW unit?

 

[widodh]

WRT charger architecture, I understand Johan's post that the dual charger setup looks like this for 400V TN grid:
View attachment 14392

Each charger draws up to 32A, yielding 12,8kW. This might be tuned down a little to control the excessive heat load.
I find it confusing that both AC circuits with 32A add to an effective 32A current in the shared L1 leg . But so appears to be.

discuss anyone?

Won't work. You can't draw 32A at 400V. You can only draw 18A at 400V.

32 / sqrt(3)

Can't the two chargers be in parallell, on all three legs symmetrically? In effect each charger being a 3x3.3 kW unit?

No, all three phases are shifted 90 degrees from each other and can't be wired parallel. That would actually cause a shortage.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Can't the two chargers be in parallell, on all three legs symmetrically? In effect each charger being a 3x3.3 kW unit?

With the standard US charger, no. But it is possible for the chargers to be connected to all three phases, if the charger is designed that way.

The thing to note about the diagram VolkerP posted is that the voltage across each charger is 400V AC. This means it wouldn't be possible to use the standard US charger.

My impression regarding the information you received is that the chargers have been modified to use all three phases. So, the diagram VolkerP posted is incorrect - instead you could draw a line directly from each phase to each charger.

- - - Updated - - -

No, all three phases are shifted 90 degrees from each other and can't be wired parallel. That would actually cause a shortage.

The correct English term is short circuit.

 

[Johan]

Well, you just spoiled everything! This is the same information I got, but I didn't want to disclose it yet since they asked me to.

I asked if this was confidential/not to be disclosed but my rep. said the info is coming out very soon anyway, so no.

From what I understand they are looking at using the Type 2 connector as the input connector instead of the Tesla connector. SuperCharging will be done (if they get it done) by combining N+L1 and L2+L3 and sending the DC power over those pins.

That's what I've been think too, but from your image/diagram above it would seem to suggest that if you do that (third column) the max current is 140A and max Voltage 500V? And we know that Tesla's Supercharger only go to about some 350V? With 140A that would be CHAdeMO territory (50kW) only. Am I misunderstanding you?

 

[widodh]

That's what I've been think too, but from your image/diagram above it would seem to suggest that if you do that (third column) the max current is 140A and max Voltage 500V? And we know that Tesla's Supercharger only go to about some 350V? With 140A that would be CHAdeMO territory (50kW) only. Am I misunderstanding you?

No, I thought the same (credits to doug!).

They told they were looking at it, they didn't say it was final.

They might make the inlet on the car "deeper" so they can make the connector pins longer and thus increasing the contact area?

A regular Type 2 connector will fit in the same way, but the SuperCharger connector can go in deeper and increase the max to 200 ~ 250A?

 

[Johan]

No, I thought the same (credits to doug!).

They told they were looking at it, they didn't say it was final.

They might make the inlet on the car "deeper" so they can make the connector pins longer and thus increasing the contact area?

A regular Type 2 connector will fit in the same way, but the SuperCharger connector can go in deeper and increase the max to 200 ~ 250A?

Good thought. Like an "increase of the cross section in the 3rd dimension"

 

[doug]

No, I thought the same (credits to doug!).

They told they were looking at it, they didn't say if was final.

The might make the inlet on the car "deeper" so they can make the connector pins longer and thus increasing the contact area?

A regular Type 2 connector will fit in the same way, but the SuperCharger connector can go in deeper and increase the max to 200 ~ 250A?

Right. Originally I thought they might metalize the inner sidewalls on the connector to increase the contact area, similar to how the existing Model S (TSL02) connector works (ignore the arrows).

But those existing Mennekes sidewalls are probably too thin to do that modification and still have proper isolation. So I now figure they can maybe increase the insertion depth by 60% or so (225A/140A). Either way, it would be pretty lame if the cost of 3-phase in Europe meant "Supercharging" got limited to around 50 kW. So standard "Mennekes" by itself won't do.

 

[dpeilow]

If this was to happen, and you only got the one 10kW (3x3.3 kw) charger then from singe phase you would max out at 16A/230V which in 99% of cases the maximum single phase outlet you're going to find in Europe anyway (Schuko). Larger outlets are mostly designed (and wired with) 3-phase (even though you can of course just draw from one of the phases). So not entirely unlikely.

This isn't true. There are a block of countries that tend to go 3-phase over 16A (Germany etc) and there are a block of countries that don't do so automatically (UK, France, etc). There are a lot of 7kW 32A 1P charging posts in the UK for example, and of course you also have all the legacy Tesla HPCs.

- - - Updated - - -

I highly doubt if they can simply make a Type 2 -> CEE adapter, there has to be some electronics in between there, like the UMC I also thought that European regulations prohibited 3-phase charging without a fixed EVSE.

I can't see why a 3-phase UMC is any less safe than any other 3 phase device you can plug in. I'd like to see evidence that it's actually prohibited.

However it looks like we are leading to two possible outcomes here:

1) The inlet must be a Mennekes / Type 2 if they want to be able to take advantage of 43kW charging stations with hard-wired cables. There are some locations (e.g. service stations in France) where this is the only option for AC.

My E-Life Now !: DBT installs a New AC DC Fast Charger in France


DC charging is then limited to ~50kW because the Tesla battery voltage is around 380V and you are limited to 140A on the pins.


2) The inlet is a Tesla special one, but then you need a cable with a Mennekes / Type 2 on the EVSE end which means you have 22kW max and you rely on finding such a station to take advantage of it. However this unlocks the full 90kW for DC and Tesla is back to rolling out superchargers in Europe.


Or there is a combination of both: They put Mennekes / Type 2 on one side of the car and their own on the other.

 

[Johan]

This isn't true. There are a block of countries that tend to go 3-phase over 16A (Germany etc) and there are a block of countries that don't do so automatically (UK, France, etc). There are a lot of 7kW 32A 1P charging posts in the UK for example, and of course you also have all the legacy Tesla HPCs.

I guess I was referring to the Nordic countries and Germany, where there are hardly any 1P outlets over 16A (the exception being some 25A outlets for ovens/cooking hotplates). I didn't know 1P at 32A were common in other parts of EU. The HPC of course is hardwired, right?

[...]
2) The inlet is a Tesla special one, but then you need a cable with a Mennekes / Type 2 on the EVSE end which means you have 22kW max and you rely on finding such a station to take advantage of it. However this unlocks the full 90kW for DC and Tesla is back to rolling out superchargers in Europe.

Or there is a combination of both: They put Mennekes / Type 2 on one side of the car and their own on the other

I would be very surprised if the EU cars have two charging ports. That said, I think your alternative number 2 is more likely. European EVSEs will start popping up with Mennekes type 2 on them, and 22kW max is fine since the Model S can't draw more than 20kW AC (twin chargers) anyway.

However, what about plugging in to the more ubiquitous CEE 3P outlets??? These are not specifically for EV charging, but can of course be used (also) for that. So we return to the question of the legality of adapters in the EU. If something like the US J1772 adapter was allowed in Europe there wouldn't be a problem, since the four large pins on the Mennekes type II correspond to the four pins on the CCE - it's just a matter of physically re-routing the electrons (just like the J1772 --> Tesla adapter in the US for 1P). I guess one of those would be illegal though in the EU.

Now, the next question is: Is having interchangeable connectors on the "non-car side" of the UMC the same as having an adapter? So in the US the UMC comes with a NEMA 14-50 "end piece", a regular 110V piece and then there is the optional NEMA 6-30 right? In the EU, if allowed, it would be easy for Tesla to supply three end pieces for the UMC: A regular 16A 1P (Schuko in Nordic countries and Germany), a 3P CEE and a Mennekes type 2 piece. Come to think of it, if this is not allowed, then Tesla will have to supply at least two separate UMCs with the car, one for 1P and one for 3P (and as per the above perhaps even two different UMCs for CEE and Menneks type 2 respectively).

 

[dpeilow]

In this case it wouldn't be an adapter, it would be a Mode 2 EVSE. There is nothing stopping that being three phase AFAIK.

Mode 2 charging: connection of the EV to the a.c. supply network (mains) not exceeding
32 A and not exceeding 250 V a.c. single-phase or 480 V a.c. three-phase utilizing
standardized single-phase or three-phase socket-outlets, and utilizing the power and
protective earth conductors together with a control pilot function and system of personnel protection
against electric shock (RCD) between the EV and the plug or as a part of the in-cable control box. The
inline control box shall be located within 0,3 m of the plug or the EVSE or in the plug.

Besides, the IEC standards only prevent adapters being used at the car end. At the wall end it is allowed.

6.3.3 Adaptors

Adaptors shall not be used to connect a vehicle connector to a vehicle inlet.
A conversion adaptor from the socket outlet of the EVSE shall only be used if specifically
designated and approved by the vehicle manufacturer or by the EVSE manufacturer. Such
adaptors shall be comply with the requirements of this standard, IEC 60884-2-5 and the other
relevant Standards governing either the plug or socket-outlet portions of the adaptor. The
manufacturer shall clearly indicate the obligation to use adaptors with such a specific
designation. Such adaptors shall be marked to indicate their specific conditions of use. Such
adaptors shall not allow transitions from one mode to another. They shall meet the
requirements of this standard and IEC 62196-1.

 

[VolkerP]

<snip>So I now figure they can maybe increase the insertion depth by 60% or so (225A/140A). Either way, it would be pretty lame if the cost of 3-phase in Europe meant "Supercharging" got limited to around 50 kW. So standard "Mennekes" by itself won't do.

Arrgh. I draw that image below in Oct 2011, when discussion on 3ph charging raged after unveiling of the Tesla02 plug at the Oct1, 2011 Fremont event.

I mailed back and forth with Eberhard on that and what he got from JB & Co while visiting Fremont.

No I am not a patent troll :tongue: the idea is rather obvious and anybody can make the best of it, please.

 

[widodh]

In this case it wouldn't be an adapter, it would be a Mode 2 EVSE. There is nothing stopping that being three phase AFAIK.

Besides, the IEC standards only prevent adapters being used at the car end. At the wall end it is allowed.

Ah, I thought the regulations were that a mobile EVSE like the UMC was that they could not exceed 16A single-phase.

If they want to support 16A 3-phase and 32A 3-phase they'll have to work with some kind of pigtails to tell the "UMC" that it's 16A or 32A.

Arrgh. I draw that image below in Oct 2011, when discussion on 3ph charging raged after unveiling of the Tesla02 plug at the Oct1, 2011 Fremont event.
View attachment 14475
I mailed back and forth with Eberhard on that and what he got from JB & Co while visiting Fremont.

No I am not a patent troll :tongue: the idea is rather obvious and anybody can make the best of it, please.

Credits acknowledged!

 

[dpeilow]

Ah, I thought the regulations were that a mobile EVSE like the UMC was that they could not exceed 16A single-phase.

Nothing like having the IEC document to cut the hearsay Let's hope Tesla got a copy.

 

[widodh]

Nothing like having the IEC document to cut the hearsay Let's hope Tesla got a copy.

Btw, we are still assuming that the Model S will max out at 20kW (32A@400V) with charging. From what I have understood they are seriously looking into going over that. 63A is probably not going to be it, but something like 48A was on the list of possibilities.

This could ofcourse only work if they have a Type 2 inlet on the car.

They had to re-design the rear lights anyway for Europe since they had to add the mandatory fog lights, so it might be that they actually went down this road.

That would mean we would be doing somewhere over 30kW at a 63A EVSE, still 10kW more then with 32A

Who knows, let's just hope Tesla comes forward with some credible information.

 

[jkirkebo]

Now, the next question is: Is having interchangeable connectors on the "non-car side" of the UMC the same as having an adapter? So in the US the UMC comes with a NEMA 14-50 "end piece", a regular 110V piece and then there is the optional NEMA 6-30 right? In the EU, if allowed, it would be easy for Tesla to supply three end pieces for the UMC: A regular 16A 1P (Schuko in Nordic countries and Germany), a 3P CEE and a Mennekes type 2 piece.

No, you won't be using a Mennekes "end piece" with the UMC as the Mennekes posts already have the EVSE built in. The UMC is not needed in this scenario, just a simple cable.

I expect Tesla to use a redesigned version of their own connector on the car. And with that you'll get:

- One Mennekes-Tesla cable (simple cable since EVSE is not needed)
- One UMC with Tesla connector at one end and several possible adapters on the other end
- One adapter of your choice

The available adapters would probably be:

- Schuko 16A 230V single phase (3.7KW)
- red CEE 16A 400V three phase (11kW)
- red CEE 32A 400V three phase (22kW)
- blue CEE 16A 230V single phase (3.7kW)
- blue CEE 32A 230V single phase (7.4kW)
- blue CEE 16A 230V three phase (if 230V IT is supported) (6.3kW)
- blue CEE 32A 230V three phase (if 230V IT is supported) (12.5kW)

 

[dpeilow]

At one point Tesla were considering a Mennekes pigtail for the UMC, until I told them it was pointless.

That's a pretty good list but in addition to Schuko (actually the similar CEE 7/7 which has the earth pin hole for France) you would also want pigtails for:

- UK/Ireland 13A
- Italy 16A
- Italy 10A
- Swiss 10A
- Swiss 16A
- Danish 10A

Maybe the Dutch/German 25A and 16A Perilex three phase plugs too (increasingly rare though)

Museum of Plugs and Sockets: Overview