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[Europe] Twin-charger: how does it work, and will it support 3-phase?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by ffylling, Apr 14, 2013.

  1. ffylling

    ffylling Member

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    #1 ffylling, Apr 14, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2013
    I wonder, the twin charger, is it necessary?

    Elon have confirmed that eu-cars will be suited for 3 phase charging.

    How does the twin charger work? Ex: Do I have to have 2 separate 240v 16 A outlets with separate fuses to use the twin charger ? If so, why not install 240v 3-phase 80a in your garage?, or even 240v 32 amp will charge quicker than 2x16a 1-phase, or am I wrong?

    Do I have to have twin charger to use the supercharger?

    is it possible to reinstall twin charger later?
     
  2. mckemie

    mckemie Member

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    I am a newbie. Had my Model S only a week. But, this is how I understand it. For USA cars.

    I first thought twin chargers could be used in RV camp grounds, hooked up to two stalls. Not so, the people at my local Tesla service center tell me. All the power goes through the single charging port. To make use of twin chargers, one must have the high power EVSE from Tesla installed. Does 70 amps, I think. These high power EVSEs are pretty rare. Most/all servcie centers witll have them, but you are not likely to find them elsewhere.

    Supercharging goes directly to your battery in DC. Therefore, it is independent of onboard chargers.

    I'm am glad now that I did not purchase the twin chargers option. It would be of use only if I installed the high power EVSE at home. At home, since the car sits all night, I have very little use for rapid charging. Right now, I do most of my charging at 20 amps through a J1772 EVSE previously used for a Leaf. I use 20 amps rather than up to 30 amps to minimize voltage sag.
     
  3. andrewket

    andrewket 2014 S P85DL, 2016 X P90DL (soon 100)

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    There are EVSE's other than Tesla's HPWC that support >40A. A MS can take full advantage of these with twin chargers. For example, there is a company in Canada deploying only 70A EVSEs on the major highways.
     
  4. mitch672

    mitch672 Active Member

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    #4 mitch672, Apr 14, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2013
    You can also build a 75A J-1772 EVSE, as I have. I use this to charge my twin charger equipped Model S:
    http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/75AOpenEVSE

    Yes, it possible to add the 2nd charger later, but it costs more than double in the US ($1,500 factory installed option, versus $3,600 to add it later): Shop Tesla Gear Twin Charger with Installation

    I don't think we know much about how the charging will work in the EU cars, or even what connector tesla will install in them, probably best to check on some of the threads about EU and 3 phase charging.
     
  5. AndrewBissell

    AndrewBissell Member

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    OP is in Norway. I don't think US experience or specs will shed much light on the situation in EU or Norway as US chargers (single or dual) are single phase whereas European ones are three-phase.

    I don't think we even know yet what "dual chargers" means for a European three-phase charger on model S. actually I don't think we even know the specs for a single three-phase charger.
     
  6. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    The standard charger will charge on 3-phase power at a maximum rate of 16A.

    This will give you 11kW of power at 400V.

    It depends on where you live in Norway and the connection you have, but if you have 3-phase 400V power available you can charge Model S with 11kW by default.

    Correct.

    There is one Type 2 (aka Mennekes) inlet on the car which has two extra pins for the Second and Third phase. So no extra connectors.

    By adding the second charger you can charge with 3-phase 32A 400V which is about 22kW.

    Don't even think about 80Amps, that is all US spec.

    No, the SuperCharging bypasses the onboard chargers.

    It probably will.


    I also recommend reading this Wiki page: Three-phase electric power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  7. ffylling

    ffylling Member

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    thanks! I do only have 230vin my area, and I am thinking of not buying the twin charger.
    in my garage ( where I will charge my car 80%of time, i have the possibility to install 3-phase 32 Amp.
    i can not see when, and where the twincharger will be nessesary? In the most chargingstations in my lokal area, they are 230v 16a singelphase.

    so: if i am charging in 230v 3-phase 32 Amp, i= ca 15kw? Do i have to have the twincharger to do this, since you wrote that the standard charger can take 3-phase 16A? (With 230v = ca 7,4kw)

    What i ment about two connectors: if you add the second charger, does this have to be connected to the 2. Wall outlet? If i have only ONE 230v 3-phase 16 Amp on my wall, this can maximum give ca 7,4 kw, but installing the twincharger it doubles to 15kw?? Then the fuse in my box will blow.....or?
     
  8. Bipo

    Bipo Member

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    We should wait until the official specs are released, but is my understanding that the single charger will support 32 A (22 kw at 3-ph 400V) and the "twin" charger will rise that limit up to 63 A (43 kW at 3-ph 400V). I don't know the current supported at 1-ph 230V or if it will be able to deal with 230V 3-ph IT, common in Norway but not in the rest of Europe.
     
  9. DonPedro

    DonPedro Member

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    ffylling: There is a long thread discussing this on the Norwegian forum: http://elbilforum.no/forum/index.php/topic,4988.0.html

    Short version: We know it will be 3-phase and support European voltages. We also know it will be a Mennekes-compatible plug and that there will be a Chademo adapter. We do not know which kinds of 3-phase will be supported (e.g. 400V TN vs 230V IT).
     
  10. ffylling

    ffylling Member

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    Ok, but I really don't se the advantages of the twin charger?

    Only on a normal public 1-phase 16a 230v charging station, though.

    Tesla says the standard charger will give 10 kw. That must be 25A 3 phase 230v = apx 9900w. (50km/hour)= 10 hours chargingtime. Therefore I think it is wrong that the standard charger supports max 16A 3phase 230v.

    I still don't understand how the twin charger woks, do I have to have two wall-outlets to get the advantage of this charger? Or will it just give advantage if I find a charging- outlet with more than 25 A?

    what with the standard quick-chargers in Norway/ eu, they are 400v with 50 kw ( 72amp?). Will my Tesla although only "pump" 10kw from this charging point without the twin? Or will those charging stations do the same as the Supercharger, DC directly?
     
  11. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    It won't be 32A, I got conformation from multiple sources that it will do 16A with the single charger and 32A with the twin charger.

    Nobody ever mentioned 63A, that somehow came up here.
     
  12. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    And we still do not know if the single charger can do single phase 32A or is limited to 16A. So we might need the twin charger for single phase 32A (7.4kW) charging too. And it seems pretty clear from the spec that 3x16A 400V will be limited to 10kW with the single charger, not 11kW.
     
  13. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Indeed, 10kW is the max and with the twin charger it will be 20kW.

    I mentioned 11kW because 3x16A is 11kW, but it's not what the charger will accept.

    But a lot of this was discussed here: Europe: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase? (Part 2)
     
  14. Bipo

    Bipo Member

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    Strange thing indeed, because one from Tesla told me about 63A/43kW literally.

    So the single charger will only be able to deal with 16A?? That may be enough when at 400V 3-ph (11 kW) but useless at 230V 1-ph (3.6 kW). Any Tesla should be able to deal at least with 32 A at 230V 1-ph (7.2 kW).
     
  15. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    We simply do not know yet because the specs have not been released.
     
  16. nikwest

    nikwest Member

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    Officially announced is 10kW with single charger and 20kW with twin charger. But I also learned that they are not going with the same chargers as originally planned but have a dedicated charger for Europe. So specs might still change ...
     
  17. Bipo

    Bipo Member

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    I am confident about the max. intensity supported by the "single" charger will be 32 A in order to provide enough power when used at 230V 1-ph.
     
  18. maxbafh

    maxbafh Member

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    I also hope for that. Because even the smallest version of the Renaul ZE fleet, ZOE, is able to charge at 63A.
     
  19. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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  20. Oyvind.H

    Oyvind.H Member

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    I believe this as well. Cannot provice my sources, but 32a one phase with single charger is what I`ve heard. And double that with twin chargers.

    16a with single charger is a joke when the battery is 85kWh. Even the 24kWh Leaf can now be delivered with 32a charger....
     

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