TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Europeanizing needed for the Model S

Discussion in 'Model S' started by matbl, Nov 17, 2013.

  1. matbl

    matbl Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2013
    Messages:
    627
    Location:
    Sweden
    #1 matbl, Nov 17, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
    The intention of this post and thread is to try to list things that seriously needs to be europeanized (for lack of better word) on the Model S.

    It is not a wishlist of the type "my Audi/BMW/Mercedes has this feature and I want it on the MS too".

    It is not to bash anything. I love the MS but would like to see it more "Europeanized" in it's European version. It would seriously help sales in the EU as well...

    It is supposed as a list of seriously missing things. Either being outright non-compliant with EU regulations (or soon to come into force regulations), missing important safety features or missing what is generally expected of every car in Europe.
    With "every car" I don't mean high end cars, I litteraly mean almost every new car (European brand or not). Such as Volvo, Renault, VW (incl. sub-brands), Peugeot, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, Ford, Mazda, etc., etc.

    Euro-NCAP tested
    This needs to be done. But perhaps some of the things listed below will yield a low score...

    Back whiplash protection
    Seems kind of bad but really unknown until Euro NCAP tested.

    Front whiplash protection
    No active protection as far as what is known. Has been available/standard in European cars for 10-15 years...

    Tyres
    In Europe, cars come with summer tyres. For a car of the MS type, that would be big brand high performance tyres such as Michelin PilotSport, Continental SportContact, Pirelli P-Zero or similar. The MS comes with a crappy "allround" tyre. In the Nordic countries, it's not even allround since it's illegal in the winter.

    CCS charging adapter
    Not a safety thing but urgently needed. We are starting to get CCS only DC stations capable of 50 KW or more.
    These stations are a great compliment to the superchargers since they are (will be soon) many more and closer spaced.


    These are the things that I currently know of. If you know more, please list and I'll update.
     
  2. Hybris

    Hybris Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2013
    Messages:
    445
    Location:
    Sweden
  3. SwedishAdvocate

    SwedishAdvocate Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,648
    Location:
    Sweden, Earth
    Saab was first in -97 with Saab Active Head Restraint – SAHR. Volvo came second in -98 with WHIplash Protection System – WHIPS. Don’t know who scored the bronze medal… So that would make it 15-16 years provided that you drove a Saab or a Volvo… :rolleyes:


    Sources:

    gizmag | Saab pro-active restraint system

    INSURANCE INSTITUTE FOR HIGHWAY SAFETY – IIHS | Whiplash injuries much less likely to occur in cars with new seat/head restraint combination, advanced crash tests show
     
  4. aronth5

    aronth5 Long Time Follower

    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,434
    Location:
    Boston Suburb
    I had a SAAB 2002 93S and had no idea it included a pro-active restraint system. Glad I never needed it:smile:
     
  5. Hybris

    Hybris Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2013
    Messages:
    445
    Location:
    Sweden
    Did crash with a bus hitting me in the back of the car. No injuries at all and no issues with the neck. In a car with whiplashprotection. Happy i was. Did x-ray etc to be sure and for future insurance claims. The car was beyond repair. Last winter spikes saved me from two crashes due to black ice. Securiity features I think is core. Tesla seem to be extremely safe to crash in. But if adding active whiplash protection, headlight cleaning, foglights, autobraking, real summer tires and real winter tires etc will make it even better.
     
  6. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,538
    Location:
    Kongsberg, Norway
    #7 Yggdrasill, Nov 18, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
    There's nothing to suggest that the current MS headrests are less safe than any other headrests.

    The parcel shelf isn't adjustable, but it does the trick.

    The 19" regular tires are Goodyear Eagle RSA2, the 21" tires come Michelin Pilot Sport PS2. The latter are at least pretty good tires.

    When it comes to winter tires Tesla Norway delivers Nokian Hakka R2, Nokian Hakkapeliitta 4, as well as Pirelli.
     
  7. matbl

    matbl Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2013
    Messages:
    627
    Location:
    Sweden
    When I tested the MS I sat in the backseat. My torso had just the right length for my head to be just above the headrest and it still fit nicely between the headrest and the roof (pano roof). For me, a whiplash from that sitting position would have been severe (possibly even fatal). So I wouldn't feel safe riding in the back seat without sliding down in the seat some which resulted in a very uncomfortable position.
    I'm 185 cm (between 6' and 6'1") tall.


    Partly. Unless you need to load something that doesn't fit under it but very nicely fit otherwise.
    This kind of thing is standard in a Skoda, Ford, VW or other cheap car...

    I was talking about the standard tyres. Since standard for every European car sold in Europe seems to be summer tyres as standard.
    This shouldn't even be expensive for Tesla, just equip the MS with 19" for Europe with decent summer tyres instead...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Thanks. Corrected the first post.
     
  8. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,538
    Location:
    Kongsberg, Norway
    #9 Yggdrasill, Nov 19, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
    And you are a medical doctor specializing in neck injuries? If not, you are just speculating.

    Some have it, others don't. It's a matter of preference more than anything else.

    I could agree it would be better if they had different standard tires, but this is again a matter of preference.
     
  9. Hybris

    Hybris Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2013
    Messages:
    445
    Location:
    Sweden
    The goodyears are allyear crap... The PS2 is great summer tires. I thin you mean Hakka 7 or 8... The pirellis are european type wintertires meaning garbage in snow and ice but good to around 0 celsius...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Regarding the headrests... They are for design and looks. A joke in size and very easy to miss in an offset crash... So easy to understand the risk with those... Yes you have a model S but please dont go defensive regarding improvements. No car is perfect.,guess what i have one on order and this is no dealbreakers but ask for future improvements... BTW. Would love to see an expert on whiplash protection and injuries to test and do a judgement of that in rhe model s. Especially in the back including the slooped roof and the saying that it would protect... Good to understand the risks when owning the car.
     
  10. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    950
    Location:
    Fredrikstad, Norway
    It's almost never standard, but you can get it (trunk safety curtain) as extra equipment for most wagons. For hatchbacks like the Model S I think it is very unusual to offer it. It's not available for the Leaf and I suspect it's not available for the Audi A7 either.
     
  11. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,538
    Location:
    Kongsberg, Norway
    #12 Yggdrasill, Nov 19, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
    Nokian Hakkapeliitta 7, is what I meant. (Was going by memory.)

    There is of course a big difference between the nordic winter tires and the winter tires they use further south, but Germany is of course also Europe, where the Pirellis are great, and teh Goodyears are quite acceptable, so it's not a matter of "Europeanizing" the Model S by offering Nordic winter tires, like matbl suggested.
     
  12. Mario Kadastik

    Mario Kadastik Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2013
    Messages:
    2,038
    Location:
    Rae, Harjumaa, Estonia
    Now I'm a bit suspicious. Wouldn't the NHTSA safety testing include whiplash check? If it did, then how come did Model S get the highest rating for personal injury prevention and safety? Would be nice to see Euro NCAP test results as well, but I'm fairly certain the results will be the same.
     
  13. Hybris

    Hybris Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2013
    Messages:
    445
    Location:
    Sweden
    Yes Europe is a very diverse region. But making something Euorready would include adapting to each market you enter. F r example tesla dont have the standard "vagnsskada" that all new cars in sweden do have. It cuts the insurance costs in half during the first three years that this extra manufacturing insurance is in effect. Not sure what this would be called in English. But it do make the car less attractive as it add a lot of cost vs a similar BMW etc. Just another example. Again not dealbreaker but can explain carmagazine test opinions and stuff that do influence sales in a country. Guess why US car sell extremely bad in Europe in general vs other non-european brands like Korean, Japanese etc...
     
  14. Mario Kadastik

    Mario Kadastik Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2013
    Messages:
    2,038
    Location:
    Rae, Harjumaa, Estonia
    Can you try to explain what the heck this vagnsskada is :)
     
  15. SwedishAdvocate

    SwedishAdvocate Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,648
    Location:
    Sweden, Earth
    From the NHTSA test results:

    2013 Tesla Model S 5 HB RWD | Safercar -- NHTSA

    Note the descriptions under: Safety Features > Seat Belts and Head Restraints > Dynamic Head Restraint and Head Restraints

    partial.png
     
  16. Mario Kadastik

    Mario Kadastik Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2013
    Messages:
    2,038
    Location:
    Rae, Harjumaa, Estonia
    I'm not claiming that it's there. I'm claiming that did they really give a high safety rating and low probability of injury without testing for whiplash? If they did test for it, then the whole discussion is moot as it doesn't matter how it's achieved as long as it's achieved. If they didn't test, then we need to wait for Euro NCAP.
     
  17. Kipernicus

    Kipernicus Model S Res#P1440

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,171
    Location:
    Belmont, CA
    Did they enable rear fog lights on European cars? I thought they were required in some countries?
     
  18. matbl

    matbl Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2013
    Messages:
    627
    Location:
    Sweden
    I never suggested they add winter tyres as standard. That wouldn't make any sense for most of Europe.
    What I suggest is to ship it with summer tyres as standard in Europe.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I remember reading somewhere that the NHTSA testing doesn't include whiplash in either front or back. That's why Euro NCAP testing is so important.

    - - - Updated - - -

    ?
    I don't think I've seen a newer station wagon without it. No matter if it's a Volvo, VW, BMW, Toyota, etc. But maybe it's just in Sweden.
    Can someone from Germany, UK, France, or other western european country clarify how it is in their countries?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Since the headrest ended on the lower half of the neck and I could tilt my head all the way back it was quite obvious that the headrest wouldn't protect from whiplash. As for the exact injury, you are right it was just speculation.
     
  19. SwedishAdvocate

    SwedishAdvocate Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,648
    Location:
    Sweden, Earth
    #20 SwedishAdvocate, Nov 19, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
    I have searched for a result regarding whiplash injury in the NHTSA test score. The test score is ‘behind’ that hyperlink (Post #16). And I can’t see any mentioning of them having performed such a test. Can you?


    - - - Updated - - -

    It might be a nitpick, but it’s only one s, so vagnskada – which in turn is somewhat of a short for vagnskadegaranti.

    As I understand it, it is a guarantee from the dealer that covers all damages to a new car in an accident if the accident is the driver's/buyer's/owner’s fault (And if the accident were someone else’s fault, then he/she who is to blame will have to cover it with their vagnskada/insurance.).

    This guarantee is valid for ~3 years (again, only for new cars) starting from the time of purchase. It basically covers this part of what the buyer/owner would otherwise have to cover through insurance. So consequently the buyer/owner 'only' has to cover all the other eventualities through an insurance of their own for the first 3 years of their ownership.

    As an example: For a CNG VW Passat ‘Sports’ Wagon (the national average is ~50%[SUP]1[/SUP] recycled methane from bio-waste), about 25% of the insurance cost is covered by the vagnskada these first three years. For this car the insurance cost would otherwise be about 450€/year. So instead it ends up at about 330€/year.

    As I understand it, this vagnskada concept may not be that common outside of Sweden.


    - - - Updated - - -

    On second thought though, I suspect Swedes end up paying for this part-insurance anyway through a slightly higher price for new cars. Therefore this whole vagnskada–issue is probably a wash... No?


    _____________________________________________
    [SUP]1[/SUP]Taking number from memory. And this number is perhaps 1-2 years old. So, grain of salt applies.
     

Share This Page