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Europeanizing needed for the Model S

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No one is addressing the very basic autobahn performance issue for the German market. It does not have the top speed or the range at high speed to compete with ICE competitors.

Exactly.

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I really think that people who say for example that the lack of blind spot detection isn't a problem because it's not necessary "because drivers should check their mirrors" are missing the point.

NONE of these features are necessary. Almost none of the Model S's features are necessary. It's not necessary to have a sound system at all, or navigation, or electric seats, or heated seats, or leather, or high performance, or alloy wheels, or air conditioning or metallic paint. Why on earth should any of this be about necessity?

The Model S is a luxury car. It's priced to compete directly with German luxury cars. A specced up Model S is as expensive as a top end Mercedes S Class in Europe. And while the Model S has some amazing features that the German cars can't provide, there's no point denying that it's completely outclassed on cabin quality and driver aids.

My 8 year old Audi A8 has radar guided cruise control, proper iPod integration, ventilated massaging seats, an integrated rear seat entertainment system, 4 zone climate control, electrically adjustable memory headrests, electric rear and side window blinds and acres of rear legroom. The Model S is a brand new car, it's more expensive than the equivalent new A8 would be today, and it has none of these things.

Now for me that's fine - I value the things that the Tesla does have and I can't wait for my P85 to arrive in a couple of months' time and to sell the A8. But it was a real challenge to sell the idea of the Model S to my wife who isn't happy about losing the adaptive cruise and the rear seat entertainment and the electric blinds. None of these features is "necessary" but it doesn't change the fact that these are what luxury car buyers in Europe expect their cars to have and the lack of these will hurt Tesla in the short-term.

+++1 This sums up perfectly what I was trying to convey.

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So I guess the Model S is targeting people who have a conscience.

I normally value your posts, but that sentence really is insulting. No way around it. Not everyone who buys an ICE is without conscience or eco-unfriendly per se.
 
What people are really saving here is that Model S need a greatly improved interior and equipment that match its price.
Yes. Until then, sales in especially Germany will stay low.

Ohh... And Tesla should deliver on made promises made several months ago. Autobahn package, supercharger install rate, supercharger installation plan communication, etc, etc.
Germans and most other europeans tend to reason like "deliver what you promised and then we'll see".


Does my sig have better fit and finish than others? The only interior improvements that can and should be made are an improved seat and B-pillar.

What else is there to do?
Are you kidding? What are you comparing to? Other american cars? Or high-end German ones?
For the interior there is at least seats, storage, safety, comfort options, integrated back seat entertainment, etc. etc.
With comfort options I mean things like being able to control the seat heater from where you sit for all 5 positions. Or 4-zone climate contro. Or... Or....

Many of these things come standard or I had them as an option on my current low-end BMW 5-series which has a listed price of about half a standard MS85 without options. I like the MS so I'm prepared to take the hit in interior comfort. But I guess many others, especially in Germany aren't.
 
I understand the seats. I understand the storage kind of. Isn't there an available storage system? What do you mean by safety? Headrest? This is a part of my seat. What is the etc?

It's really more about the quality of the materials for me. The grade of leather on the dashboard is a vastly lower grade than a BMW or Porsche with a leather-wrapped dash. The thread they use and the stitching is much cheaper looking. The mirrors in the visor have a cheap plastic cover and don't even illuminate, which is something you get on a Kia. Look at your seat and how cheap looking it is and compare it to the recaro-style seats the germans give you. Seats that hold you in the bends and offer almost infinite adjustability and are often air-conditioned as well. The floor mats and carpeting is also a grade you'd expect in a 14,000 dollar korean sub-compact, not a premium sedan
 
@AustinPowers, my posts expressing bewilderment that some German drivers rank fancy interiors, ACC, blind spot detection, and the ability to go 150mph until their gas tank is sucked dry of US$8/gallon gas as more important than environmental responsibility are not directed at you personally but at those German drivers who "can't see the forest for the trees". I obviously acknowledge their existence but that does not mean that they should not be told that they need to get their priorities straight. And yes, that is my opinion, though one which is supported by the realities of the world we live in.

I am happy to see that hundreds of German drivers are embracing the Model S and other EVs and I am confident that in the future those numbers will grow.
 
Poor carpeting, cheap visor, poor stitching, lane departure warnings, 8 way seat adjustments, 4 climate zones, rear entertainment systems - all shallow frills and gimmicks, IMHO of course.

I am pretty sure the Germans are not that shallow, except I suspect the emotion of national pride is a powerful force that could cloud the mind. A nation that has produced some of the finest automobiles, and is known for top class engineering is now clutching on '8-way seats' ?
 
Poor carpeting, cheap visor, poor stitching, lane departure warnings, 8 way seat adjustments, 4 climate zones, rear entertainment systems - all shallow frills and gimmicks, IMHO of course.

I am pretty sure the Germans are not that shallow, except I suspect the emotion of national pride is a powerful force that could cloud the mind. A nation that has produced some of the finest automobiles, and is known for top class engineering is now clutching on '8-way seats' ?

You can believe me, for most Germans national pride is almost non-existent. We have been told for almost 70 years now that national pride equals faschist behaviour - only in Germany that is. No one would dare tell the French to stop being proud of their country, or the British, the Americans, hell even the Russians. But after decades of having had a thorough hammering in of such views all through their school years and beyond, people over here have come to believe it.
But the more important point is, with Model S it surely isn't the bad image of American cars in general. Most people over here don't even know Tesla, let alone where it comes from. I could tell my friends and colleagues that Tesla is from Finland, and not knowing better they would believe me. If I told them Tesla was from Sweden, and told them about the excellent safety results, they would probably even say "of course, being a Swedish car, it must be safe".
What I am trying to say is, national pride is surely not the main driving force. Rather being used to what you get from Audi, BMW, Merc etc. vs. what the Model S doesn't offer might be a factor, like many others here have speculated too.

Plus, when it comes to American cars, Model S is the most European of them all.
 
Poor carpeting, cheap visor, poor stitching, lane departure warnings, 8 way seat adjustments, 4 climate zones, rear entertainment systems - all shallow frills and gimmicks, IMHO of course.

I am pretty sure the Germans are not that shallow, except I suspect the emotion of national pride is a powerful force that could cloud the mind. A nation that has produced some of the finest automobiles, and is known for top class engineering is now clutching on '8-way seats' ?

Ever hear the expression "you never get a second change to make a first impression"?

Before you drive the car you are going to see it in a showroom, open the door, look inside, play with the gadgets, smell the leather and look around at all the gizmos inside. Some people may be put off by what they see and never get as far as a test drive.
 
There's no accounting for taste! But there is accounting for the cost of accouterments. I find it ironic that the Europeans here seem to advocate for Tesla to meet the full range of luxury attributes in a car that features seminal innovations, which are unavailable from any European manufacturer. Surely you don't think that a battery worth as much as the price of many complete automobiles can be had for free!?

The hat trick that has been pulled off by Tesla is to successfully position a car with that seminal innovation in a price range where there is enough left to meet at least the basic requirements of a big luxury car. But clearly Tesla designers see low value in many of the things considered "standard" for premium luxury vehicles, while obviously valuing other things prized by automotive enthusiasts. If you "max out" your tesla, you will get lots of handling and dynamics enhancements, but not that many "avionic" or cosmetic niceties. In this it seems they have bet on the side of performance rather than on the side of luxury. So they have taken to the BMW vs Mercedes side of that tradeoff space.

I personally value the simple (some might say Spartan) interior. It goes well with the lack of buttons, knobs, and switch banks, and seems "Frank Lloyd Wright"-like (one might say USAoNAn) in its aversion to clutter. Wright infamously preferred carports to garages, because people would be less likely to use them as warehouses for their excess stuff.

The path is open for some other, possibly European, manufacturer to take the Mercedes approach to electric vehicles and produce a comparable but plusher product with more of what the luxury market wants; or to offer both, with corresponding extra cost options, as Audi might seek to do.
 
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Thanks for the clarifications. This is why Elon calls it a "premium" or "performance" car not a "luxury" car. I understand it costs like a luxury car.
I don't think that fit and finish improvements would change the German sales much. Poor German sales were expected. I think Elon was either putting on a brave face or trying to drum up business. Change is hard. It is harder for Europeans than Americans. There are too many negatives that the Europeans are not willing to tolerate. Tesla will need to wait for the Model E to see robust European sales. The size, range, and speed prevent Germans from adoption. Size and cost prevent a lot of others who might give sustainability a chance.
The Chinese are all about change. I do predict a much faster ramp up in China than Europe.
 
There's no accounting for taste! But there is accounting for the cost of accouterments. I find it ironic that the Europeans here seem to advocate for Tesla to meet the full range of luxury attributes in a car that features seminal innovations, which are unavailable from any European manufacturer. Surely you don't think that a battery worth as much as the price of many complete automobiles can be had for free!?
The question at hand is "what is the Europeanizing needed for the Model S?" - what does it take for it to be successful there. Not in Maryland, not in Oregon, but in Europe, and for a large part of the thread for the German market, which Elon has singled out as extremely important in a speech that he gave there a little over six months ago.
And we are trying to address "what does the typical German buyer of a EUR70-100k car expect".
And here's the funny thing. That German buyer does not expect that battery that you are talking about. Instead they expect other things. Things that maybe YOU don't value, but apparently they do.
So if Tesla wants to win that market (as Elon said they do), then what will it take?

Being insulted by the Tesla faithful as conscious-less, wasteful, stupid morons is a great way to approach that. I would suggest a different approach, one that's based on understanding "why is it that only a couple hundred people buy the Model S while tens of thousand BMW, Mercedes and Audi in the same price range are sold in that same month".
The hat trick that has been pulled off by Tesla is to successfully position a car with that seminal innovation in a price range where there is enough left to meet at least the basic requirements of a big luxury car. But clearly Tesla designers see low value in many of the things considered "standard" for premium luxury vehicles, while obviously valuing other things prized by automotive enthusiasts. If you "max out" your tesla, you will get lots of handling and dynamics enhancements, but not that many "avionic" or cosmetic niceties. In this it seems they have bet on the side of performance rather than on the side of luxury. So they have taken to the BMW vs Mercedes side of that tradeoff space.
They have taken it to a "stripped down bottom of the line BMW" side of the equation - if you ask the German buyer. And while this may work great for the true believers, for people in Maryland and Oregon, it apparently doesn't work so well for the alleged target market, in this case, Germany.

And that's our point.
 
On reflection, I think that most of American sales are to people like me who would never pay $100,000 for a car other than a Tesla. Luxury at that level is not in my nature. The most I previously paid was $50,000 for a very large vehicle for my wife. My friends who can afford a Tesla have not made a purchase. The buyers are stretching to buy or paying much more than their normal. Although the Tesla has sold well in the USA, I don't think it has affected other similarly priced cars. I believe it has grown the price point sales. It is still an early adopter car and typical "luxury" buyers are not necessarily early adopters. Tesla needs feedback from the German Tesla buyers to see who they are to do more networking and enthusiast sales.
 
Accusing Germans of nationalism in not buying Model S is getting too close to Freedom Fries for me.

There is nothing wrong with people expecting an appropriate level of comfort in a $100k car and we all know Tesla really needs to up its game to be competitive in the long term. If we expect people to not even have to think of range and charging when owning a Tesla then why do people need to have to consider whether the level of fittings is appropriate? It should be at at appropriate standard.
 
Could you (or most of you) pay some attention to the lack of "Autobahn speed & stamina" of current Model S? I appreciate that those qualities don't strike a cord with your American needs. But they do with certain groups of (business) Europeans.
Please bear in mind that European air travel is not as fast & easy as taking a bus, like in the US. So (fast) car travel has a certain market share for typical 'travelling salesmen'. The difference between meeting two prospected customers in a Model S and three in a comparably priced MB, BMW, Audi or VW is just too large.
 
Could you (or most of you) pay some attention to the lack of "Autobahn speed & stamina" of current Model S? I appreciate that those qualities don't strike a cord with your American needs. But they do with certain groups of (business) Europeans.
Please bear in mind that European air travel is not as fast & easy as taking a bus, like in the US. So (fast) car travel has a certain market share for typical 'travelling salesmen'. The difference between meeting two prospected customers in a Model S and three in a comparably priced MB, BMW, Audi or VW is just too large.

I understand that Europeans look for different things in cars but air travel isn't exactly easy here anymore either. You can no longer arrive to the airport 45 min before a flight and fly through security to your gate. Also, even then I don't think traveling long distance by bus is done in US that often either. Maybe train systems in Europe also easily trump the US.

It's possible the Model S won't be a hit in Germany until the next revision with larger pack and maybe a second gear if that ever happens. With $8 gas, I would think there is some market. If gas hit that level here people would be screaming for electric vehicles and infrastructure or at least more fuel efficient vehicles.
 
I appreciate the perspective of dirk, Austin and our other German TMC members and thank them for their composed, fact based responses. I encourage my American comrades to concede that it is possible that the German car buyer wants something different from its 5+2 large powerful sedans.
Perhaps further revisions in driver-assist technology, or a bigger battery, or better supercharger rollout, or version 6 of firmware will make model S more appealing to the traveling salesmen of Germany.
Maybe Gen 3 will sell better in Germany in appealing to more of the in town commuter types who may seek a smaller vehicle.
 
The question at hand is "what is the Europeanizing needed for the Model S?" - what does it take for it to be successful there. Not in Maryland, not in Oregon, but in Europe, and for a large part of the thread for the German market, which Elon has singled out as extremely important in a speech that he gave there a little over six months ago.
And we are trying to address "what does the typical German buyer of a EUR70-100k car expect".
And here's the funny thing. That German buyer does not expect that battery that you are talking about. Instead they expect other things. Things that maybe YOU don't value, but apparently they do.
So if Tesla wants to win that market (as Elon said they do), then what will it take?

Thank you for a very well balanced post.

Comfort things aside, it will also take delivery of made promises.
Examples:
Elon promised some kind of "autobahn package". Where is it?
Elon promised a very quick supercharge roll out. Where is it?
Elon promised to communicate the supercharge roll out plan. Where is that communication?

If I understand German sentiment correctly (same goes here in Sweden), you are first expected to deliver on your promises. Then you might have the possibility to sell the product.
Everyone understands that plans can change. But then you communicate that change and the new timeline to be able to keep the interest. But if you do that more than once or twice, you'll just look like a French company and be ignored... ;)

One more thing.
First impressions last. So if the first impression is poor build quality (don't say the MS have a good one compared to German-manufactured cars) and lack of interior comfort it doesn't matter how good the driving is. First impressions last....
 
One more thing.
First impressions last. So if the first impression is poor build quality (don't say the MS have a good one compared to German-manufactured cars) and lack of interior comfort it doesn't matter how good the driving is. First impressions last....

Not sure what you're basing this on, but if it's anecdotal I can provide counter evidence. Over 14 years I owned 2 Audi's and 1 BMW and can say without question the Model S build quality is substatially better than all 3. It feels more solid and sturdy. The frame is much stiffer. Initial quality was higher, too.

My first Audi dumped all its washer fluid when I brought it home thanks to a failed washer pump. Over the next several years it suffered from a persistent oil leak that eventually required the engine to be pulled and the rear main seal to be replaced.

My second Audi had numerous creaks and rattles on delivery (factory order, so I had no opportunity to check before taking delivery). Also Audi recalled it 2 times in the first 3 months for a bad engine seal that required the supercharger to be removed to replace (whole day) and a leaky rear differential (another day).

The BMW, also a factory delivery (European Delivery in fact), came with the folds inside out on the seat leather! My wife and I still had a great time driving it around Europe despite the leather seams poking us in the back, but once it got back to the States it was in for leather rework for a week and BMW comped us for the screw up. Also, the transmission was always glitchy on that car, endemic to that model, and was in for reprogramming several times.

My Model S? First 3 months not a single issue. Around month 5 I got a warning about a low 12V battery. One call to Tesla and they had someone out to my office to swap it later that morning.

So please, do tell me more about this poor build quality of the Tesla Model S compared to German cars. And yes, I agree first impressions do last. How do you think my impressions ended up?