Europeanizing needed for the Model S

[Electroman]

I can guarantee one thing for sure with 100% certainty - no oil leaks ever in any Tesla. As certain as the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow

 

[perdru]

Not sure what you're basing this on, but if it's anecdotal I can provide counter evidence. Over 14 years I owned 2 Audi's and 1 BMW and can say without question the Model S build quality is substatially better than all 3. It feels more solid and sturdy. The frame is much stiffer. Initial quality was higher, too.

My first Audi dumped all its washer fluid when I brought it home thanks to a failed washer pump. Over the next several years it suffered from a persistent oil leak that eventually required the engine to be pulled and the rear main seal to be replaced.

My second Audi had numerous creaks and rattles on delivery (factory order, so I had no opportunity to check before taking delivery). Also Audi recalled it 2 times in the first 3 months for a bad engine seal that required the supercharger to be removed to replace (whole day) and a leaky rear differential (another day).

The BMW, also a factory delivery (European Delivery in fact), came with the folds inside out on the seat leather! My wife and I still had a great time driving it around Europe despite the leather seams poking us in the back, but once it got back to the States it was in for leather rework for a week and BMW comped us for the screw up. Also, the transmission was always glitchy on that car, endemic to that model, and was in for reprogramming several times.

My Model S? First 3 months not a single issue. Around month 5 I got a warning about a low 12V battery. One call to Tesla and they had someone out to my office to swap it later that morning.

So please, do tell me more about this poor build quality of the Tesla Model S compared to German cars. And yes, I agree first impressions do last. How do you think my impressions ended up?

I assume that the two Audis and the BMW were in the same price category as your Model S ?
However, it would be much more comforting to hear a satisfied Audi or BMW owner state Tesla´s supreme quality, rather than someone who consider Audi and BMW to be crap - which they are not

 

[jkirkebo]

I can guarantee one thing for sure with 100% certainty - no oil leaks ever in any Tesla. As certain as the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow

I'm pretty sure there is oil in the differential and that one TMS someday will leak oil there

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It's possible the Model S won't be a hit in Germany until the next revision with larger pack and maybe a second gear if that ever happens.

No need for a second gear with a larger pack. A larger pack can put out more energy. Energy that can be used to drive a front motor for 4WD. Then you have the choice; better acceleration and 210km/h top speed, or same acceleration (4.5s 0-100) and 250km/h top speed (by larger gearing). A front motor is surely much easier to implement than a gearbox.

 

[dsm363]

I'm pretty sure there is oil in the differential and that one TMS someday will leak oil there

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No need for a second gear with a larger pack. A larger pack can put out more energy. Energy that can be used to drive a front motor for 4WD. Then you have the choice; better acceleration and 210km/h top speed, or same acceleration (4.5s 0-100) and 250km/h top speed (by larger gearing). A front motor is surely much easier to implement than a gearbox.

Good point. I didn't think about that. So they basically wouldn't have to change anything other than AWD and could continue to improve their single speed transmission. If that's the case then we are maybe a year or two away from an acceptable Model S for German market at least in terms of top speed.

 

[donauker]

I can guarantee one thing for sure with 100% certainty - no oil leaks ever in any Tesla. As certain as the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow

The sun has risen in the East hundreds of times since there was an oil leak from the transmission of my Tesla Roadster and I am sure it would be possible for the transmission of my Model S to develop a leak also.

 

[Electroman]

Of course you guys know what I mean - Engine oil - : )

 

[jbruce]

I totally agree with this and I've also been trying to emphasize the lack of top speed and range at high speed but the very U.S. centric enthusiast community here does not seem to like to acknowledge that its a significant issue.

Could you (or most of you) pay some attention to the lack of "Autobahn speed & stamina" of current Model S? I appreciate that those qualities don't strike a cord with your American needs. But they do with certain groups of (business) Europeans.
Please bear in mind that European air travel is not as fast & easy as taking a bus, like in the US. So (fast) car travel has a certain market share for typical 'travelling salesmen'. The difference between meeting two prospected customers in a Model S and three in a comparably priced MB, BMW, Audi or VW is just too large.

 

[dirkhh]

I totally agree with this and I've also been trying to emphasize the lack of top speed and range at high speed but the very U.S. centric enthusiast community here does not seem to like to acknowledge that its a significant issue.

To me that's the main issue here. A largely US based and focused group that apply their experience and expectations to a target market that's quite different...

 

[William13]

The current battery in the Tesla does not have sufficient energy for the car at 150 mph for any sustained distance. This type of driving is not currently convenient with either Superchargers or battery swap. We probably need to wait for 150 kWh batteries to make this convenient. This is one segment of German driving.

Do all Germans drive this fast yearly? Is it all Luxury buyers? Do any German Green party members have the money to buy a Tesla?

For me, driving a Tesla is making a statement about sustainability with quality into the future. It is also more fun to drive than any other sedan on the planet.

A paradigm shift to better on more fun driving though not faster driving comes with a Tesla Model S.

PS. I think that memories are not that set in stone with "first impressions" and that with the Model E, Tesla will outsell German competition in Germany.

 

[AustinPowers]

Do all Germans drive this fast yearly? Is it all Luxury buyers? Do any German Green party members have the money to buy a Tesla?

For me, driving a Tesla is making a statement about sustainability with quality into the future. It is also more fun to drive than any other sedan on the planet.

A paradigm shift to better on more fun driving though not faster driving comes with a Tesla Model S.

PS. I think that memories are not that set in stone with "first impressions" and that with the Model E, Tesla will outsell German competition in Germany.

Outsell is a goal that I don't think even Model E will achieve, but I am sure it will sell in far larger numbers than Model S.

To your questions regarding German driving habits: on the Autobahn, the majority of people drive fast to very fast (not yearly, daily), especially when comparing to US highway speed limits. And it is not only luxury cars by any means. Most cars here can go somewhere between 120 and 155 miles per hour max, and long stretches of Autobahn are still without speed limit (and even if there are speed limits, quite a few drivers don't give a damn and go much faster - there is far too little speed checks here). Of course, the majority of very fast drivers are Porsche/Audi/BMW/Merc/Jag/Maserati etc., but there are also many cheaper cars that are driven very fast, even family hatchbacks, station wagons (especially when used as company cars by travelling salespeople/businesspeople) and minivans like our VW Touran. And you would be amazed at the speeds that "Sprinter"-type cargo vans drive over here - a constant danger by the way.

Green party members (as well as their voters) over here, as statistics show, often come from a financially well equipped part of our society. So I am certain many would be able to buy a Tesla. The thing is, the Green party members I know personally (and that is quite a few) tend to favor small cars, even when they can afford others.

I actually think the approach German automakers are taking at the moment seems to be able to capture quite a bit more of the alternative energy car market. Not that I am too happy with some of those offerings, but to further EV adoption I think they are a good idea at least for the German market.
The e-Golf for example. When you buy one of those, you get an ICE loaner car for longer roadtrips for free for up to 30 days a year (30 days is standard union vacation time here in many companies). So range anxiety, which in general only exists on longer roadtrips, would not matter anymore.
Or plugin-hybrids like the coming Golf GTE, or the Mercedes S 500 Plugin Hybrid with a very low overall fuel consuption.

 

[mnx]

Doesn't Germany have crazy expensive electricity? Like >0.25 euros per kWh? I would think that would be enough by itself to put a giant dent in Model S sales.

 

[AustinPowers]

Doesn't Germany have crazy expensive electricity? Like >0.25 euros per kWh? I would think that would be enough by itself to put a giant dent in Model S sales.

It is true, our electricity is quite expensive, after the latest (now yearly) price hike it is somewhere between 0.25 and 0.35 Euros per kWh.
But I am not sure if that is a major factor in the equation for buyers. After all, our petrol and diesel is very expensive as well, yet still a lot of people buy cars with powerful engines (albeit far more economical ones than in former times, thanks to lots of technical advances in the last few years, plus ever more hybridization).

 

[matbl]

Doesn't Germany have crazy expensive electricity? Like >0.25 euros per kWh? I would think that would be enough by itself to put a giant dent in Model S sales.

But petrol is about 8.50-9 USD per gallon.

 

[ThosEM]

Being insulted by the Tesla faithful as conscious-less, wasteful, stupid morons is a great way to approach that. I would suggest a different approach, one that's based on understanding "why is it that only a couple hundred people buy the Model S while tens of thousand BMW, Mercedes and Audi in the same price range are sold in that same month".

And that's our point.

dirkh, you're welcome to your point of view. But if you found my post insulting after reading all that "conscious-less [SIC], wasteful, stupid morons" stuff into it, you must have a "guilty conscience" problem. Also, I believe Model S is selling very well compared with BMW, Mercedes, Audi, and even Porsche in many markets, if not in Germany.

 

[huntjo]

People keep mentioning lack of range at high speed. I was under the impression that this was due to air resistance and affected ICE vehicles as well, necessitating frequent fuel stops. How many miles can one go in an M5 at 150 mph before needing to refuel? And how closely would you (Tesla) have to space superchargers in order to accommodate the extra charging stops for the speedier travelers? Every 100 miles? Every 50?

 

[dirkhh]

dirkh, you're welcome to your point of view. But if you found my post insulting after reading all that "conscious-less [SIC], wasteful, stupid morons" stuff into it, you must have a "guilty conscience" problem. Also, I believe Model S is selling very well compared with BMW, Mercedes, Audi, and even Porsche in many markets, if not in Germany.

Turning this into personal attacks is unlikely to improve the discourse. I'd appreciate if you attacked my arguments, not me.
I certainly did not attack you - I criticized the approach taken by some people who posted here to address the point at hand. Which ironically is that they criticize that the Germans are doing it wrong. Which indeed is what you are doing in your attack on me.
And I'm sorry that my command of the English language does not live up to your expectations. It's my third language. My apologies.

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People keep mentioning lack of range at high speed. I was under the impression that this was due to air resistance and affected ICE vehicles as well, necessitating frequent fuel stops. How many miles can one go in an M5 at 150 mph before needing to refuel? And how closely would you (Tesla) have to space superchargers in order to accommodate the extra charging stops for the speedier travelers? Every 100 miles? Every 50?

I can tell you from personal experience that you can take a 535D at speeds above 200km/h (125mph) for large parts of the ride from Munich to Frankfurt (which is about 400km / 250 miles) and have plenty of fuel left in the tank.

 

[huntjo]

Turning this into personal attacks is unlikely to improve the discourse. I'd appreciate if you attacked my arguments, not me.
I certainly did not attack you - I criticized the approach taken by some people who posted here to address the point at hand. Which ironically is that they criticize that the Germans are doing it wrong. Which indeed is what you are doing in your attack on me.
And I'm sorry that my command of the English language does not live up to your expectations. It's my third language. My apologies.

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I can tell you from personal experience that you can take a 535D at speeds above 200km/h (125mph) for large parts of the ride from Munich to Frankfurt (which is about 400km / 250 miles) and have plenty of fuel left in the tank.

Yeah I guess if they design it with trips like that at speeds like that in mind, they'd probably go ahead and make the gas tank big enough to accommodate that many miles.

For what it's worth, your English is basically flawless, and I think you have adequately defended the perspective you are presenting. If I were you, I'd give up trying to educate those that choose not to listen (read) and just ignore them, in favor of continuing the conversation with the rest of us.

Discussion point for all: anyone theorize that the change in the speedometer has marks is in anticipation of a bigger battery size and slightly higher top speed? This could make the current Model S slightly more appealing for the autobahn even before AWD and a second (differently geared) motor is available.

 

[dirkhh]

Yeah I guess if they design it with trips like that at speeds like that in mind, they'd probably go ahead and make the gas tank big enough to accommodate that many miles.

The 535D has an 18.5 gallon tank, IIRC.

For what it's worth, your English is basically flawless, and I think you have adequately defended the perspective you are presenting. If I were you, I'd give up trying to educate those that choose not to listen (read) and just ignore them, in favor of continuing the conversation with the rest of us.

Thanks for your kind words. I have in the past learned that once you stop arguing your point, others will drown you out and people just reading along will end up with the incorrect perception that you have "given in" or "agreed". As a shareholder and huge Tesla fan I actually care quite a bit about Tesla's ability to succeed in Germany. That's why I keep pushing the issue

Discussion point for all: anyone theorize that the change in the speedometer has marks is in anticipation of a bigger battery size and slightly higher top speed? This could make the current Model S slightly more appealing for the autobahn even before AWD and a second (differently geared) motor is available.

I thought they simply switched to a linear scale because of the effect the logarithmic scale had on the perception of rate of speed increase (the faster you went, the slower the "needle" moved - so it looked like the car ran out of steam much quicker than it actually does).
I believe that Tesla has stated that they weren't going to increase the top speed but just make handling modifications to make the car perform better on the Autobahn. I'm sure they could just change the firmware to allow a slightly higher top speed, but I don't think that would really make a huge difference - things just get worse as far as range is concerned. But I'll admit that I haven't done the math how close to the max-RPM of the motor they are at the current top speed.

 

[William13]

The Tesla Model S range would only be less than 75 miles at 130 mph continuous. Thus superchargers would not help enough to make this practical.

 

[dsm363]

If people drive 125+ mph on a regular basis then I can see the Model S not really fitting in without battery swaps.

Thanks for your input Dirk.