TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

EV entitlement

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by David99, May 9, 2014.

  1. David99

    David99 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2014
    Messages:
    2,054
    Location:
    Brea, Orange County
    We are all happy that more and more EV charging stations are installed. Often they are put in premium places, near elevators or close to the mall entrance and such. Basically premium parking spots. What I noticed is that many of these ICE cars that have an added limited electric drive train (Volt, plug in Prius) are taking advantage of being a little bit of an EV and park at charging stations. Not because they need to charge but because they love taking advantage of the premium parking spots.

    Here at a popular mall the charging stations have been installed in the more desirable area of the parking structure. Sure enough every time I go there and plug in, I see those electric assisted ICE cars parking there and not plugged in. Some pretend to charge and plug in the cable but never activate the charger (I can tell as the display would show). Clearly they don't care about charging and making sure they use as much e-power vs gas. They got their car to have an eco-friendly feeling and get the benefits of the prime parking and use the car pool lane. Not only do they not care about driving electric vs gas, they feel so selfish that they block others from charging (that really want or need it) in taking these spots. It is always the Volt and Prius drivers that do it. All-electric EVs usually plug in and actually charge. Although I have seen several Leafs not plugging in even at chargers that are 100% free! Being too lazy to walk a few stairs or take an elevator is more important than any other EV driver that might need to charge.

    Yes there are plenty of Volt and plug in Prius drivers that are considerate, but there will always be jerks who only think about their own advantage. There is no cure for it. The only thing that helps this problem is putting EV charging stations in areas of the parking structure that isn't considered preferable. Put them on the opposite corner or upper levels. This will take care of the problem without any enforcement. Every EV driver that actually needs to charge doesn't mind going up a few more levels or walking 1 min across the parking lot when this makes sure there is an open charger.
     
  2. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Messages:
    15,852
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Personally I prefer that the charging stations not be in premium locations, for that very reason. Unfortunately it's often simpler and less expensive to mount the chargers as close as possible to the building because that's where the power comes from. The premium location isn't necessarily a deliberate perk.
     
  3. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    18,235
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    And you'll find Teslas and other EVs will do the same thing. It's more about the person than the car.
     
  4. Tedkidd

    Tedkidd Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2013
    Messages:
    612
    Location:
    Rochester, New York, United States
    Hey, take pictures and post!

    Hmmm. Maybe a shame sticker is needed. 'Thanks for being a parking piggish smug fart sniffing (south park reference) envirofake.' Apply it to unused charge port.

    Post pics including license and sticker...
     
  5. hyperpretension

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    San Diego
    Do you really need to plug in when you are just making a trip to the mall? My mall is 4 miles away, not 261.

    I admit to taking advantage of premium parking spaces around town with Blink chargers, but I do activate my charge, so I consider it getting a good parking space plus some electricity for a buck. I'm sure there's somebody I've annoyed with that on a Leaf forum who wonders why I feel entitled to use a public charging station when my display was showing 190 miles of range.

    Plus with such limited EV range, I'd rather a Volt owner charge up at a public station and go home on battery power than have their ICE generator kick on.
     
  6. djp

    djp Roadster 2.0 VIN939

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,108
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Agreed it's great to see charging stations, but I think the industry is going down the wrong path by installing free 30A stations. I'd rather see dedicated paid spots for 70/80A or L3 stations.

    Charging a fee would discourage people from blocking the stations and higher power would add meaningful range compared to a 30A trickle charge.

    Whenever I see a 30A station in a premium spot I think:

    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1399720206.165999.jpg
    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1399720219.513680.jpg
     
  7. GSP

    GSP Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,997
    I agree that it is better to not put charging stations in prime parking spots.

    It also is much better to charge $1/hour to park next to the charging station. That way only the people that need to charge will park there.

    I don't think you can tell how much someone needs to charge by the type of PEV they are driving. Let whoever gets there first and pays to stay there use the facility.

    GSP
     
  8. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    4,502
    Location:
    Maine
    A locked, charging Volt does not have the display on. The display will come on when you open the door. I know this because we have a Volt and although it's a minor annoyance to have to open the door to tell, it's better than wasting power running the screen because I really don't have to know.

    You can tell if a Volt is charging by the green light inside the cabin on top in the middle of the dashboard.

    You should see either the Solid Green or the Short Flashing Green.

    Besides that, look to see whether it's possible to use a charger from a neighboring spot. If so, it's possible a plug-in has been charging and was unplugged, or if the charge door has been left open, was waiting to charge and is hoping a good samaritan will plug them in when done.

    If you are sure they have not or will not be charging, take a look at the sign.
    - If the sign says "Electric Vehicle Parking" go to customer service and complain about the signage and suggest that it be changed to say "Electric Vehicle Charging Parking" or something else that makes it clear that you should onlly park there if you want to charge your vehicle.
    - If the sign says "Electric Vehicle Charging Parking" or similar note the license plate, go to customer service and report the car.
     
  9. Tedkidd

    Tedkidd Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2013
    Messages:
    612
    Location:
    Rochester, New York, United States
    I like that.

    Seems part of the problem is placing ev spots in prime parking. Some thought to this in layout/design might help avoid friction.
     
  10. David99

    David99 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2014
    Messages:
    2,054
    Location:
    Brea, Orange County
    I know some cars don't show clearly if they are charging or not. The Blink chargers at this specific mall show clearly if charging is in progress or not. Many signs here mention that you must be charging. The problem is even if you let the mall management know, all they can do is put a note on the car, the spot is still blocked and it doesn't prevent the next person from doing the same.

    I think the only way to fix this problem is to put the EV chargers in less desirable parking spots. This will instantly take care of the whole problem.
     
  11. Ven Rala

    Ven Rala Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2012
    Messages:
    378
    Location:
    Montgomery County, Md
    EV charging etiquette is still in its infancy. Like most things in life it is about being considerate to your fellow man.

    I don't think there should be a preferential hierarchy of EVs (EV only vs plug in hybrids), I think anyone who can plug in should irregardless of their battery capacity etc, because otherwise how do you place the hierarchy: is a Leaf get preferential treatment to a Tesla because it has a shorter range, does a Volt get preference over a Prius plug-in because it can go farther on the battery, the arguments would never end.

    I do think if you park in a charging spot and not actively charging, it is worse than ICEing because you can't say you didn't know any better. Once you are charged, you should move. Ie don't park in a charger all night, don't park at a supercharger and go see a movie, etc.

    It would be difficult to move chargers away from 'premium' locations as these close locations are often chosen due to proximity to electrical sources. Putting them at the far end of the parking lot would significantly increase cost.
     
  12. Chris Naps

    Chris Naps Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2014
    Messages:
    183
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Excellent point and well put.

    To be honest I think places like this should install more 120v wall sockets rather than high amped charging stations.

    Fast charging stations should be located further from the mall. The thing is no mall is going to monitor who parks in the priority parking and who doesn't. If they ticketed people, then that would stir up too much controversy. They want everyone to come to the mall and they want people to spend money. Parking is only a gem in the rough. This gem encourages people with electric cars to shop. The mall does not care who parks there. It is more of a community issue than anything.
     
  13. gnelson

    gnelson Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Messages:
    557
    Location:
    Houston
    I drive my Volt in EV mode only. I am certainly entitled to park at a charging station if I pay for its use. I have an EvGo agreement that allows unlimited charging for an annual fee, and will use that agreement. Don't tell me I am not entitled. EvGo actually gives a better rate for Volts than Teslas. I don't feel that I am more entitled to charge my Tesla than my Volt.

    I also have a Blink account and a ChargePoint account. Don't tell me I can't use those accounts just because my Volt has a gasoline engine that I never use.
     
  14. David99

    David99 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2014
    Messages:
    2,054
    Location:
    Brea, Orange County
    I don't think anyone said that you can't charge. My post was about people who don't need to charge and don't feel like walking a few steps and rather take up a charging location and NOT PLUG IN. My experience is that it's mostly Volt and Prius drivers that do this. They obviously abuse the privilege of being able to park in a charging spot that is close to the elevator just so they have less to walk. Charging isn't their concern. You are not one of them. No need to get defensive.

    I don't think it's a general issue, it totally depends on the location. The power 'source' is usually not in the place where the mall entrance is. Running a cable two or three levels up a parking structure is minimal effort and cable length isn't an issue. Chargers don't need to be at the very far end where there is no power, just move them a few rows back so they are not premium spots.
     
  15. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    18,235
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    If you don't need the charge but just want the parking spot and pay for the charging then that is your right. I'd still argue being considerate of other people's potential need to charge should be considered but that is up to the individual to decide that. It is first come first serve though.
     
  16. cwerdna

    cwerdna Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,033
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Yep. I've seen anecdotal reports for Tesla Model S blocking EV spots while not plugged in.

    A few weeks ago, someone found a Leaf occupying a CHAdeMO spot for HOURS at Stanford Mall in Palo Alto, CA. They had charged and it was well beyond done. Two other Leafs had to get "creative" in order to get behind that car to DC FC. IIRC, the time that elapsed was at least 5 hours w/that inconsiderate Leaf blocking that spot.

    IIRC, a few months ago a Model S was blocking that spot. There no way that Model S could even use the CHAdeMO DC FC.
    There are guides to quickly tell if a EV/PHEV is charging. See My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - How to quickly glance connected car to see if charging done and a snapshot at My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - How to quickly glance connected car to see if charging done. That snapshot is unfortunately a bit old and outdated now. It doesn't include the Smart ED, Fiat 500e nor Spark EV. But, at least the Spark EV has the same light conventions as the Volt.

    The Fiat 500e seems like it has similar light conventions to the Leaf except it has 5 light which I believe represent charging progress in 20% increments instead of 3 lights on the Leaf (representing ~33% each).

    I've printed the above list out and carry it w/in my car. I also have a bookmark/favorite on my phone.
     
  17. David99

    David99 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2014
    Messages:
    2,054
    Location:
    Brea, Orange County
    One thing that adds to the problem is the stupid concept of needing special cards for each charging network instead of just a credit card reader. I see new EV users all the time that have no clue about Blink or Chargepoint or eVgo or whatever. Imagine all gas stations had their own cards and you need to sign up with all of them and none of them would take CC or cash.
     
  18. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    18,235
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    There was some state (CA I think) that was looking into a law to address that. It would say that all public electric vehicle charging stations must have credit card access.
     
  19. cwerdna

    cwerdna Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,033
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    (I have 2 Chargepoint cards that I use all the time at work (free L2 charging there on our Chargepoint stations) + 1 Blink card that I've never used.)

    AFAIK, per Get Started - ChargePoint, on Chargepoitn stations, you can also use credit cards w/RFID chips in them. You can also call the # on the front of the Chargepoint stations, but that's pretty inconvenient each time. I have called them to report broken stations a few times before.

    When I picked up my Leaf, my salesperson had a stack of Chargepoint and Blink cards on their desk and offered me/suggested I take 1 of each. Ideally, Tesla and ALL EV/PHEVs makers should be giving folks cards for the charging networks in their area.

    Yes, it does kinda suck that there are so many different networks, usually w/different cards.
     
  20. youlikeadajuice

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2012
    Messages:
    367
    Location:
    Bloomingdale, NJ
    Just this week I ran into what I feel was a case of EV entitlement, or ignorance. I arrived at a hotel it Gaithersburg, MD after driving down from New Jersey. The hotel has one charging station which also happens to be the closest spot to the entrance...even closer than the handicap spaces. I arrived at 9:30pm, and there was a Volt plugged into the charger but had already completed charging. I asked the front desk if they knew when the owner might move, but they did not. So, I left a very friendly note on the windshield of the volt, and asked if they could text me when they moved. I didn't receive a text til 7:30am the next morning.

    The volt had out of state plates, so I understand that the owner probably wanted a full charge to make the most of his trip home on EV power, but why not move when you're done instead of tying up the charger for 10 more hours? Especially at a hotel where anyone arriving is likely in need of a charge.

    This kind of goes back to the need for a "destination charging" solution. Tesla has said that they generally do not install superchargers (or really any charging) at destinations, because that is not the purpose they serve. However, if the established "destination chargers" are regularly tied up by those who are simply charging locally to take advantage of EV power vs. using their gasoline backup, this presents a problem. This is a need vs. want scenario. I fully respect the desire of a Plug in Prius or Volt owner to "want" to drive purely on electric, but you can ALWAYS make it home without a charge. There are pure EV drivers who cannot make it home without a charge. I realize this is a difficult situation and that there is not really a clear answer, but I think we can all at least be considerate of each other and really evaluate where we are at in this process of transitioning to electric vehicles. Hopefully someday soon, the availability of charging stations won't be an issue, but at the moment, I think pure EVs should definitely have priority at charging stations.
     

Share This Page