EV parking priority

[JRP3]

Seriously, change the record.

Not going to happen. Sorry if you don't like the tune. Wanting to plug in is not the same as needing to plug in. Buying a plug in hybrid with a limited pack and then hogging up the charging infrastructure because you want to pretend it's an EV is not the answer. People who need to charge should take priority over people who want to charge.

 

[Doug_G]

Not going to happen. Sorry if you don't like the tune. Wanting to plug in is not the same as needing to plug in. Buying a plug in hybrid with a limited pack and then hogging up the charging infrastructure because you want to pretend it's an EV is not the answer. People who need to charge should take priority over people who want to charge.

I think that answer is a bit extreme. I do believe plug-in hybrids should be able to use charging infrastructure.

At the same time I can understand the sentiment. Plug infrastructure is currently a pretty limited resource and the hybrid doesn't NEED the plug, although it's clearly more environmentally friendly and economical to use it.

Unfortunately with a Tesla the only time I need infrastructure is when I'm on a road trip. I can easily imagine a situation where a Volt owner is saving a few bucks, and I'm sitting there STRANDED waiting for him to unplug. In that situation if I could track down the owner I'd offer him $20 to unplug his car!

 

[JRP3]

I think that answer is a bit extreme.

And you then go on to basically agree with me :wink:

 

[Doug_G]

And you then go on to basically agree with me :wink:

Yeah, but I hope I sounded a little less extreme.

The "use case" for a Volt, a Leaf, and a Tesla are quite different. Volts need power to keep them environmentally friendly and save money. Leafs need chargers to get home safely, but they are relatively short-range vehicles that only sip power. Teslas rarely charge near home, but can travel long distances and really want to have high power chargers available when they do that. These different use cases can easily come into conflict.

The fundamental problem with any kind of priority scheme is that there is no practical way to implement it. Who decides? How?

If you have a charge station along a major transportation corridor, the only practical way to ensure it's used by those who need it most is to charge money for the service. And you should probably charge more for higher power chargers. Then the users self-select. That's the only practical answer I can think of.

 

[dsm363]

If you have a charge station along a major transportation corridor, the only practical way to ensure it's used by those who need it most is to charge money for the service. And you should probably charge more for higher power chargers. Then the users self-select. That's the only practical answer I can think of.

This would be ideal. Install a few low power 15A J1772 charge stations for people who will be there for hours and hours in a plug-in and want to fill up before leaving but then have 30 and 80A J1772 stations at higher prices.

 

[dpeilow]

Not going to happen.

So which is it to be?

In the Volt thread you were complaining that the average electric miles were 65% and that people were just getting the cars for the tax breaks and carpool lanes and probably not plugging in, and now you're saying they shouldn't be charging in public places?

If I'm charging and an EV turns up in dire need of a charge then I'll give way - in fact I have even given a Leaf driver my fast charging cable and stayed for 2 hours to help them out. But it's because of this holier-than-thou attitude that I now have to padlock my J1772 to stop it getting pulled out mid-charge. I've got every right to be there as long as I am charging and got there first. If it was a large battery EV you'd be waiting even longer.

Neither of them needs to plug in, but if you are that concerned with not using gasoline then buy an EV with more range, not a hybrid.

That's right, I'll just conjure up another 50 grand so that I can drive electric for the other 10% of the time and block your charge spot for longer Sometimes I think some people have been breathing the rarefied air here too long.

 

[Doug_G]

Dave, you're right that the Volt users have every right to plug in. We should be encouraging it. The real problem is the current lack of sufficient infrastructure to ensure that pure EV owners can actually get home at all. That is what is potentially putting people into conflict.

My ideal charging location would have:

• A bunch of 110V plugs - FREE!
• A few 240V 15A J1772 sufficient for Volts and Leafs - dirt cheap
• A small number of high power J1772 - pay by the hour
• Places nearby to get coffee, snack, full meal, entertainment, etc.

 

[rolosrevenge]

I think another good way to do it is to have free EV parking spaces but not every space has a charger. Then those that don't need to charge can get the EV parking benefits, and if all the chargers are taken, you can park next to a car already finished charging and use the plug they're plugged in to. Padlocking the J1772 into your car doesn't seem right because if your done charging after two hours but parked for four, someone else could be stranded for two.

 

[dpeilow]

I appreciate the 'not going to get home scenario' but the same applies to *any* plug-in car already using the charger. Are we saying that EV drivers should not go out of sight of their charging cars? Of course not. We all need to be polite and considerate and if possible leave a cell number in the window or similar, so that a driver in real need can get in touch. I would not and have not blocked a charge spot all day, for example. However if you are driving an EV and a journey is marginal, always have a plan b because you never know if an 85kWh Model S might be in the spot.

I'll make a counter point: I recently made a trip where I expected to maybe use 20 miles of gas. Instead it was nearer 60 because another driver tampered with the cable at the destination, despite there being 12 charging points within a mile and 2 just 200 metres away. [In the UK (maybe elsewhere) RFID charge points will cut out completely in this case until the original card is presented and also the cables are ours, not hardwired to the EVSE.] That cost me about £6. Is that right?

I totally get the unreliable infrastructure thing. It's a big factor in me getting the Ampera. Even now, 2 years after their launch, I could not get to/from my folks in a Leaf on a Sunday afternoon or evening due to lack of charging. However the flipside is that I do call in at out of the way charge points to test them and report back to the community, and there have been several cases where I have been glad of the generator. I also get to places where I can make the case for more charging.

If we want to make the biggest dent in oil use right now, we should be advocating ER-EVs to the mass market for at least this generation of cars. That means they need equal charging priority to have maximum impact. It doesn't mean I don't fully support Tesla working on the pure EV issues from the top end.

 

[JRP3]

So which is it to be?

In the Volt thread you were complaining that the average electric miles were 65% and that people were just getting the cars for the tax breaks and carpool lanes and probably not plugging in, and now you're saying they shouldn't be charging in public places?

Actually I wasn't complaining, just pointing out the actual use patterns. I'm happy that plug in hybrid drives want to drive on electricity as much as possible, but in this time of limited charge points it would be a shame if EV drivers who need to charge can't do so.

I've got every right to be there as long as I am charging and got there first. If it was a large battery EV you'd be waiting even longer.

The problem is that plug in hybrids tend to use public charging more than EV's because of their smaller packs. They chose a hybrid to avoid any range anxiety and still only want to drive on electricity, they want the best of both worlds.

That's right, I'll just conjure up another 50 grand so that I can drive electric for the other 10% of the time and block your charge spot for longer Sometimes I think some people have been breathing the rarefied air here too long.

How about you accept the compromise in pack size that you chose, just as EV drivers accept the compromise in range that they chose, even if they didn't spend an extra 50 grand?

 

[dpeilow]

Actually I wasn't complaining, just pointing out the actual use patterns. I'm happy that plug in hybrid drives want to drive on electricity as much as possible, but in this time of limited charge points it would be a shame if EV drivers who need to charge can't do so.

Which I've explained in the post above how we avoid.

The problem is that plug in hybrids tend to use public charging more than EV's because of their smaller packs. They chose a hybrid to avoid any range anxiety and still only want to drive on electricity, they want the best of both worlds.

How dare they want a pratical, no compromise car that can reduce oil use by an order of magnitude!

How about you accept the compromise in pack size that you chose, just as EV drivers accept the compromise in range that they chose, even if they didn't spend an extra 50 grand?

So if I bought a pure EV with a 16 kWh pack, like the i-MiEV, should I not be taking up public charge points all the time with that too?

It's not a case of 'didn't spend', it's 'can't spend'. That's what you regularly seem to forget.

I see you've got your Model S. I'm stoked for you. But don't act like an ass and insist the 99% drive around in some punishment box or some compromise. Your attitude will be the thing that does the most to promote continued ICE use.

 

[DrTaras]

If we want to make the biggest dent in oil use right now, we should be advocating ER-EVs to the mass market for at least this generation of cars. That means they need equal charging priority to have maximum impact.

For the record, I've got my Roadster, my wife has a MSP, my daughter, the gas guzzling (non plug-in) Prius (or Pry-us, as you brits say - I'll be there in April); I realized after years of hard work, I'm blessed. But that all being said, I still agree most, of the 21 posts since mine, with the above statement.

I also thank you for the tons of service that you, dpeilow, do. Over the last 6 years, as a local rEVolutionary, I know how much hard work and time goes into being an EVangelist! :redface:

 

[JRP3]

How dare they want a pratical, no compromise car that can reduce oil use by an order of magnitude!

I don't see where I criticized anyone's choice of vehicle, just their insistence that they "need" to use the limited charge points.

So if I bought a pure EV with a 16 kWh pack, like the i-MiEV, should I not be taking up public charge points all the time with that too?

Hopefully anyone buying an i-MiEV did so because the limited range was suitable for them, so their occasional use of public charge points should not be an issue, and it will because they need the charge, not because they want to charge.

It's not a case of 'didn't spend', it's 'can't spend'. That's what you regularly seem to forget.

Hardly. I built my own EV because I couldn't spend the money for the only available EV, the Roadster.

I see you've got your Model S. I'm stoked for you. But don't act like an ass and insist the 99% drive around in some punishment box or some compromise. Your attitude will be the thing that does the most to promote continued ICE use.

Now you are seeing things, because not only do I not have an S I never ordered one nor am I going to. Though I could afford a base Model S I'd never spend that sort of money on a car. You have this weird idea that I'm promoting EV elitism when I'm just trying to point out the real differences between hybrids and EV's, in design and use. It's the same argument we've been having all along, plug in hybrids are not EV's, and this is just another example of why that is true.

- - - Updated - - -

If we want to make the biggest dent in oil use right now, we should be advocating ER-EVs to the mass market for at least this generation of cars. That means they need equal charging priority to have maximum impact.

But that all being said, I still agree most, of the 21 posts since mine, with the above statement.

Unless that impact ends up making EV's more difficult to use because the limited charging points are tied up by cars that don't really need them. Is being PHEV'd better than being ICE'd?

 

[dailydriver]

I had not put too much thought into this since I didn't anticipate having to use public charging stations much with the 85 kWh Model S (which, of course, is one of the many very compelling reasons for owning this as an EV).

Our city had recently installed a free Level 2 public charger in the downtown area. A few weeks ago, my wife and I were going to dinner and I decided to try it out so that it would help boost the utilization and show that there are EVs out there and some demand for public charging stations (I didn’t actually need the charge). A woman in a Chevy Volt beat me to the space and just parked her car and walked away without connecting to the charger. I guess she felt that the spot was privileged parking for EVs/PHEVs and not just for charging. The signs clearly read that it was a charging station and not just a preferred parking spot. I concluded she was either ignorant or rude or both (probably because she stole my spot :frown.

It did get me thinking about if 100% EVs should have priority over PHEVs. I was very miffed about this incident but have now gotten over it.:smile:

 

[bonnie]

I carry two sets of notes in my Roadster.

One note, that I tuck in the window closest to the charge port, says "Happy to share the charge, but please call my cell at xxx before unplugging. If I have enough to get on my way, it's yours." (So far, it has worked well - and I've met some nice people.) The second one is a a reminder to share the plug, with a copy of the state law saying they could be towed for doing what they're doing. Those I just tuck under their windshield wiper.

I keep wanting to make up a third one, but so far I've resisted ... something that goes on their back window, saying "Please Tow Me. I deliberately parked in this space and I'm not charging." But that wouldn't be nice.

 

[dailydriver]

I keep wanting to make up a third one, but so far I've resisted ... something that goes on their back window, saying "Please Tow Me. I deliberately parked in this space and I'm not charging." But that wouldn't be nice.

That would be nicer than scratching the same note into their paint!:smile:

 

[vfx]

...

My ideal charging location would have:

• A bunch of 110V plugs - FREE!
• A few 240V 15A J1772 sufficient for Volts and Leafs - dirt cheap
• A small number of high power J1772 - pay by the hour
• Places nearby to get coffee, snack, full meal, entertainment, etc.

Many of the local LA EV owners have suggested the LAX put in 100 plugs at 120V each. That makes more sense for longer stays like airports which are usually overnights. For those who are dropping off or picking up passengers they will have to find another solution (they have to now anyways).

 

[dsm363]

Chargers in the cell phone waiting lot (if they have one) would be nice too.

 

[kvietor]

Went to the Home show in the Tampa Convention Center this weekend and made use of the ChargePoint station in the garage. Came out several hours later to find the charge cord removed and plugged into a Volt in the next slot. A note on my door indicated that the Volt driver noticed no charging taking effect and called ChargePoint to confirm the station was operating before switching. Apparently my S charged full by the time he had arrived. He even left his number and said he would come out and disconnect if I felt it was done in error. Nice guy, wasn't really necessary but I called and left a message telling him all was OK and thanked him for the note.

Now if we all could be that courteous, wouldn't it be a nice world to live in?

PS: @dsm Tampa International's cell phone lot has a charging station and charging there usually brings a crowd.

 

[bonnie]

Love stories like that . Thanks for sharing.