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I am of the decided opinion that the entire 'MPGe' concept is a load of [BOLSHEVIK]. It seems to be calculated in precisely a manner to make sure that low mileage, low battery pack capacity vehicles from ICE manufacturers are awarded with 100+ MPGe, even when the total range is far below 100 miles. Further, it is designed to reward plug-in hybrid vehicles with 80+ MPGe ratings even when the majority of their complete range is achieved at only ~42 MPG running on gasoline the entire time. Like I said, I'm not a fan of the 'use less gas' principle of car design. Mostly because for every gallon of gasoline burned, no matter how efficiently per mile, you still get 100% of the emissions generated.

Look at it this way... A gallon of gasoline contains approximately 33.7 kWh of energy. With about a 9 or 12 gallon capacity fuel tank, that would work out to between 303 kWh and 404 kWh of energy reserve. If you'll remember, both the Prius and VOLT were originally marketed as 'an electric car that runs on gas' -- which was complete [BOLSHEVIK], of course. Each company dropped those tag lines very shortly after release, but I think the damage had already been done to the public psyche. If as much as 90% of the energy in gasoline was converted directly to electric drive, I'd have no problem at all with hybrids. But it is instead not even 40% efficient -- more than 50% less than what I would consider nominal. With around 273 kWh available for motivation, an electric car that runs on gas, would probably have a range not less than ~818 miles, and possibly as much as ~1,090. That would be an actual, real world observed fuel economy of anywhere from 90 MPG to 121 MPG.
The EPA fuel economy ratings were confusing/annoying in the past, but they've gotten better in my opinion. A Prius Prime gets 133 combined MPGe for the first 25 miles of a trip, and 54mpg combined after that. A Tesla gets 103 combined MPGe. If you have a long enough commute, the Tesla will use less energy and have a higher average MPGe, and if you mostly take shorter trips, the Prius could have a higher average MPGe.

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It is the bare minimum negotiated POS that traditional automobile manufacturers requested of CARB so that they wouldn't have to worry about surpassing the Chevrolet VOLT's ~16 kWh battery pack capacity when building a plug-in hybrid. This version of the Prius made the 2014 Honda Accord Plug-In Hybrid look better though, with its paltry 13 miles of fully electric range. You'll notice that for each one, the theme continues that if you add a plug, you must pay more, but lose overall range compared to a regular hybrid version. But at least manufacturers gained the heightened MPGe rating to apply toward their CAFE.

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It's not just about surpassing the Volt's battery pack size. The plug-in Prius was designed to fill a different role than any of those cars, and the same applies to the rest. A car like the Volt provides great phev range, but makes compromises on interior volume and mpg on gas. The pip has far less EV range, but it has far more room and gets better mpg than even the normal Prius. Each car is just an optimization exercise in filling a different niche.
 
When filling an ICE tank one rarely spills a significant amount of fuel.

Of course - I leave all my spilling to the pros like BP etc ;).

That's part of the ridiculousness of MPGe , IMO - that it choose the 'pump' or 'plug' as an arbitrary point with full understanding that oil's inefficiency on the car's side can be made negligible, and on the other side is externalized.
 
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Yes, game over.

The Nio has a faster Nurburgring time than the Porsche 918 which has a base price of $845K. The tip top of the top end Bugatti Chiron ($2.3M) and Ferrari LaFerrari ($1.4M) have run at Nurburgring but to my knowledge haven't released their times -- draw your own conclusions but I think it's pretty obvious they can't beat the Nio EV. And this is a mere 5 years after the Model S was introduced and EVs first dipped their toes in the mainstream.
Comparing a Tesla Model S drag racing capability to a super car's drag racing capability was admittedly reductionistic, ok. So now you are comparing an EV supercar's capability to an ICE supercar's capability. And by extension the 5000lb Tesla sedan is now somehow a super car? But, but, but...
 
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The EPA fuel economy ratings were confusing/annoying in the past, but they've gotten better in my opinion. A Prius Prime gets 133 combined MPGe for the first 25 miles of a trip, and 54mpg combined after that. A Tesla gets 103 combined MPGe.
I'm sorry, but it is exactly this kind of reasoning that MPGe engenders I find so flawed.
A kWh of electricity is equal to a kWh of petrol, in the same way a pound of gold is equal to a pound of feces.
 
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It's not just about surpassing the Volt's battery pack size. The plug-in Prius was designed to fill a different role than any of those cars, and the same applies to the rest. A car like the Volt provides great phev range, but makes compromises on interior volume and mpg on gas. The pip has far less EV range, but it has far more room and gets better mpg than even the normal Prius. Each car is just an optimization exercise in filling a different niche.

The PiP not only had a very short range, the EV mode was speed and power limited. Too fast or too quick, the ICE must run.

The Prime was engineering to the new CARB mandate. While it still doesn't have to pass all the EPA test in electric-only mode, it must have 20 miles of AER in tests it can complete.

Toyota has always lied about the true power to weight of the PiP, and now the Prime as well. In theory, it should have acceleration similar to a Volt, but does not.

What it amounts to is the Volt is significantly quicker and more powerful car, especially in the mountains.

The Volt's AER makes it the economy winner against any version or year Prius for most drivers. The mean ICE % of miles is over 75% and climbing for Volt fleet. Only if you routinely travel more than 150 miles each day does the Prius get the edge in economy. But in any case, the Prius is one of the slowest cars sold. Even the totally gutless $13k Spark will match the far more expensive Prius in performance.

So for some folk, the Prius is simply not a modern car, it's a throwback to economy cars of the 1980's. Very good mileage but with tragic performance and handling.
 
If Ford doesn't move on EVs, they'll be cornered into just being a truck company, and eventually that will be removed from them as well.

'Eventually' might not even be that long. As soon as Youtube has a video of a Tesla truck pulling a Ford truck in a tug of war, UPHILL, it will be over. One thing truck owners can't stand is being laughed at.

Mostly because for every gallon of gasoline burned, no matter how
efficiently per mile, you still get 100% of the emissions generated.

YES! +42

At $1.5 million dollars each, really game over?

Yup. The tip top fastest car thing has always been a 'money is no object' game. Once someone says 'but look how much it costs' they have lost. Might as well pay a Corolla.

Thank you kindly.
 
Comparing a Tesla Model S drag racing capability to a super car's drag racing capability was admittedly reductionistic, ok. So now you are comparing an EV supercar's capability to an ICE supercar's capability. And by extension the 5000lb Tesla sedan is now somehow a super car? But, but, but...

You claimed in an earlier post that EV overall performance couldn't match ICE. The Nio shows that isn't true even at ICE lovers' favorite test spot -- Nurburgring. Model S accelerates 0-60 faster than the fastest production supercar and also handles extremely well for a large sedan.

And back to the topic of this thread ..... My guess is the base Model 3 will outperform comparably priced sedans from BMW, Audi etc. in terms of acceleration and handling. In fact the Tesla EV skateboard platform with a low center of gravity and even weight distribution should allow the Model 3 to handle extremely well.
 
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My further point is that the rationale of plug-in hybrids being a 'bridge' to EVs is flawed, because it is instead a roadblock deployed as an excuse by traditional automobile manufacturers who employ the 'use less gas' principle.
I understand your point, but the PHEV has the redeeming features of convenience, versatility, and cost. I find the first two benefits to be minor compared to a Tesla although I accept that it may vary. The cost difference is more obvious and the difference can pay for a home PV setup.

If we ask what is better for the community/country/earth for the next 10-20 years

PHEV+PV, or
EV+grid

is the answer really so obviously in favor of EV ?
 
Yes, zenmaster, we know all about BMW's skid-pad numbers.

Tesla needed to dispel the myth of the golf cart and the Model S proved the ridiculous superiority of the electric motor. Others will take care of the rest. In the future, one can always listen to Panama by Van Halen to remember what a Lamborghini sounded like.

Kudos to Porsche for realizing this is an existential crisis.

Porsche changes its mind on electric vehicles, plans 50% of its production to be electric within 6 years

Yes, game over.

The Nio has a faster Nurburgring time than the Porsche 918 which has a base price of $845K. The tip top of the top end Bugatti Chiron ($2.3M) and Ferrari LaFerrari ($1.4M) have run at Nurburgring but to my knowledge haven't released their times -- draw your own conclusions but I think it's pretty obvious they can't beat the Nio EV. And this is a mere 5 years after the Model S was introduced and EVs first dipped their toes in the mainstream.

Comparing a Tesla Model S drag racing capability to a super car's drag racing capability was admittedly reductionistic, ok. So now you are comparing an EV supercar's capability to an ICE supercar's capability. And by extension the 5000lb Tesla sedan is now somehow a super car? But, but, but...

I'm with zenmaster on this. There are many hyperbolic quotes here. How many laps did the Nio do before it had to charge for a few hours? A supercar will win the race every time until charging is better as well. You can design and build a great electric supercar that will out accelerate and set a single lap record, but it can't win a race when it has to charge for an hour.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is awesome to watch the drag race videos, in fact I was showing them to my father last weekend. Even those, you see the ICE catching up and passing when the race goes beyond 1/8 mile. But when it comes down to it, unless the race is a single lap, don't count on a battery powered vehicle winning against a supercar.

On the topic, I can't wait to hear more details about the driving experience of the 3. If it is in the BMW 3-series (and similar cars) ballpark, I'm sold. I'm sold anyway, but that makes it even more enticing.
 
On the topic, I can't wait to hear more details about the driving experience of the 3. If it is in the BMW 3-series (and similar cars) ballpark, I'm sold. I'm sold anyway, but that makes it even more enticing.
Acceleration will be a given. But one of the more amazing things to me about the Model S was its flatness in corners. My A4 has far more body roll than the boat-like S. Tesla's cornering flatness is of course due to it's thousand pound battery pack at wheel-level. I hope and anticipate the 3 will have similar dynamics. Then you add on millisecond throttle response and no gear shifts, and yeah, I expect it to blow most people's minds.
 
  • "Installing chargers locally in approximately 15 metro areas consisting of 300+ stations (L2 or DC Fast Chargers (50 to 150+ kW))"
So the actual charger will be as little as 6 kW or as much as 150 kW. *cough*

VW says that most of the stations will be DC fast-charging, including some with a power capacity over 150 kW:

  • Installing chargers locally in approximately 15 metro areas consisting of 300+ stations (L2 or DC Fast Chargers (50 to 150+ kW))
  • Developing a high-speed, cross-country network consisting of 200+ stations (DC Fast Chargers)
Yea if you ignore the "+" and the "over 150 kW" then yea, the actual chargers could be anywhere between 6 and 150 kW in metro areas and somewhere between 50 and 150 kW at the cross country network. If you include the "+" and the "over 150 kW", then there will probably be some with over 150 kW.

So VW isn't building superchargers because they won't call them superchargers?
 
Are there any CCS or Chademo cars that can charge over 50 kW ?
Not that I know of, so I suspect the station will split the kW between cables.

The Audi EV will be and that's expected to come in 2018.

From Electrify America's national ZEV investment plan:

Industry input received during the Outreach Plan provides Electrify America with confidence that one or more vehicle manufacturers plan to sell 320 kW capable ZEVs by 2020. Electrify America will carefully evaluate the ratio of 150/320 kW chargers at these sites for maximum customer convenience and optimal budgeting, but it plans to “future proof” these investments by designing most stations to be cost-effectively converted from 150 kW to 320 kW charging by the end of the 4th cycle (e.g., by installing appropriately-powered utility connections capable of handling 320 kW chargers), as recommended by Idaho National Lab.

You can read into that all you want and it isn't even like I care. I live in Germany and drive a Tesla, so I am not really affected by that. But quoting an article that says VW will build over 150 kW chargers, to prove VW won't build chargers comparable to superchargers is just wrong.
 
So VW isn't building superchargers because they won't call them superchargers?
Yes. They may be installing some super chargers, but the name "SuperChargers" are the charging network of Tesla DC chargers.

What VW will install is CCS (and probably ChaDemo) chargers. CCS is capable to use 150kW charging, and ChaDemo goes to 100kW if I do remember correct. But as far as I know no car is yet able to charge any more then ~71kW on this chargers.

Edit: And if VW goes up to *over* 150kW I think they do not follow the CCS standard, as it is limited to 150kW. There are works on expanding the standard to 350kW, but as far as I know it is not yet ratified.
 
I understand your point, but the PHEV has the redeeming features of convenience, versatility, and cost. I find the first two benefits to be minor compared to a Tesla although I accept that it may vary. The cost difference is more obvious and the difference can pay for a home PV setup.

If we ask what is better for the community/country/earth for the next 10-20 years

PHEV+PV, or
EV+grid

is the answer really so obviously in favor of EV ?
To me it is EV+grid. The grid is getting cleaner every year. A PHEV will still burn gas 10 years from now.
 
The PiP not only had a very short range, the EV mode was speed and power limited. Too fast or too quick, the ICE must run.

The Prime was engineering to the new CARB mandate. While it still doesn't have to pass all the EPA test in electric-only mode, it must have 20 miles of AER in tests it can complete.

Toyota has always lied about the true power to weight of the PiP, and now the Prime as well. In theory, it should have acceleration similar to a Volt, but does not.

What it amounts to is the Volt is significantly quicker and more powerful car, especially in the mountains.

The Volt's AER makes it the economy winner against any version or year Prius for most drivers. The mean ICE % of miles is over 75% and climbing for Volt fleet. Only if you routinely travel more than 150 miles each day does the Prius get the edge in economy. But in any case, the Prius is one of the slowest cars sold. Even the totally gutless $13k Spark will match the far more expensive Prius in performance.

So for some folk, the Prius is simply not a modern car, it's a throwback to economy cars of the 1980's. Very good mileage but with tragic performance and handling.
Where did Toyota say the Prius will accelerate the same as a Volt? The Volt's electric motor alone has about 40hp more than the combined output of the Prius's motor+engine, and naturally it has far more torque than the Prius can ever put down. The plug-in can pull a little more power from the pack than the hybrid can, but it doesn't make a big difference in acceleration. INL tested the 0-60 time of all three cars, with the normal Prius at 11.8s, the plug-in at 11.3s, and the Volt at 10.2s.

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/hev/fact2010toyotaprius.pdf
https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/03/f20/fact2013toyotapriusphev.pdf
https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/phev/fact2013chevroletvolt1.pdf

Like I said before, all three are different cars built for different niches. The Volt has high AER and the best acceleration, but gives up interior room and mpg on gas. The Prius plug-in has low AER and a little less range than the normal Prius, but it has a lot of interior room, like the normal Prius, and gets slightly better mileage/acceleration than the normal Prius. The normal Prius has no EV range and lower mpg/acceleration than the plug-in, but it costs less to build. Different strokes for different folks. The Prius Prime and new Volt are also built for different niche's and for any change's in CARB credits like you said.

Having said all that, I also wouldn't call the plug-in Prius going from 0-60 about 1+s/10% slower than the Volt or much smaller Spark) tragically slower, but I guess that's just me.
 
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I'm sorry, but it is exactly this kind of reasoning that MPGe engenders I find so flawed.
A kWh of electricity is equal to a kWh of petrol, in the same way a pound of gold is equal to a pound of feces.
I don't disagree with the gold/feces comparison. At the same time, MPGe is about relative (tank/plug to wheel) energy efficiency/use, not energy quality, externalized costs, and so on.