"Even if you buy no options at all, this will still be an amazing car!"

[strykeroz]

85 kWh is approximately equal to 2.5 gallons of gasoline in energy capacity. So, you'd think a 265 mile range would be divided by 2.5 gallons... And that would yield a 106 MPGe rating... But it doesn't.

And that link includes a tip of the hat to metric/SI by using kWh/100miles. Classic.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Unfortunately, that isn't how the EPA calculates such things. They use a very strange formula that appears to be designed to put electric vehicles at the highest possible disadvantage. And it still doesn't work to save even the most efficient ICE vehicles from being gas guzzlers in comparison. It seems to me that the main point of 'MPGe' is to render a relative equivalence in cost to operate per mile as opposed to actual energy consumption.

What's strange about the formula they use?

 

[strykeroz]

What's strange about the formula they use?

Check the link. 3 different 85kWh Tesla S variants, each with different ranges - which is fine. But the one on the left rated as a 89 MPGe versus 93 MPGe for the one in the 3rd column, despite having 12 miles greater range. Same size battery, more range, worse economy by MPGe rating.

It appears like horsepowers, not all MPGe are created equal. Or that range is wrong. Or something.

 

[ecarfan]

The energy consumption ratings used by the EPA are further complicated by the fact they measure energy 'from the wall' instead of 'from the battery pack'. Some think that's fine, I think it's rather unfair. It is as if they are presuming you are spilling electrons on the floor every time you refill overnight in your garage

But there are efficiency losses when charging, correct?

When filling an ICE tank one rarely spills a significant amount of fuel.

 

[Ubbe]

For example: This is a BMW E46 series 3 back seat. OMG.

To be honest - I could care less about a spaceship feel if I could have a Tesla M3 with an interior like this.

To everyone: I'm still buying an M3 even if it doesn't look like this.

View attachment 200225

O dear, I'm sorry but that was the ugliest interior I've seen in a while. Perhaps because it has that beige/brown retirement home reclining couch combined with the "louis vuitton bag" styling that makes it feel dated and decadent. But everyone has their own taste.

 

[dsvick]

It's even worse looking through the pictures. Throw pillows? Are they serious? They make it even look more like a Liberace stage.



Thankfully, Tesla does not and you'll never find a Tesla interior looking like that.... I hope!

Agreed, I hope to never have to drive in anything like that. Talk about your over the top, gaudy, overly ostentatious, in your face silliness ... but hey, to each their own.

 

[dsvick]

Who cares about grab handles ? My wife apparently.

Mine too, although I think that is more a reflection of what she considers the low quality of my driving skills ...

 

[JeffK]

Average margins on the Model S are stated at about 25%. I realize much of that is distributed toward the well optioned vehicles. It would be nice if someone could chime in with factual knowledge, assuming it is public, about the margins on the base Model S.

I agree margins will be slimmer on the 3. That's an amazing base price. I'm guessing they're banking on optioned vehicles to once again skew margins upward to a reasonable level. With the scale of the 3, it would be crazy to assume they're shooting for a similar spread.

As always, the base model will represent your best 'deal.' But it may not be your best choice.

Margins on the base S are 15% the base Model 3 is also supposed to start at 15% according to Elon.

 

[SageBrush]

Yes it is a problematic measure

MPGe is moronic. It encourages people to compare an ICE to an EV in terms that make no sense. And while it can be used to compare one EV to another to say which car uses more energy per distance, there are much simpler units for that purpose. Like energy/mile Duhhh

IIRC, MPGe is used by the EPA in qualifying fleets for CAFE compliance. Fine. Whatever. They should just do that stuff quietly and not try to pander to American's hapless ignorance by confusing them either further.

 

[JeffK]

MPGe is moronic. It encourages people to compare an ICE to an EV in terms that make no sense. And while it can be used to compare one EV to another to say which car uses more energy per distance, there are much simpler units for that purpose. Like energy/mile Duhhh

It does make sense in terms of cost to power it. The average price of a gallon of gas today is $2.22 and average US residential electricity prices per kWh according to this are 12.54 cents.

I've posted this before but again the amount of energy in a gallon of gas is 33.7 kWh. 33.7 kWh * 12.54 cents = $4.23

If I have a Toyota Prius that goes 42 MPG then my price per mile is 2.22 / 42 = about 5 cents per mile.
if I have a 2016 Tesla Model S60D rated at 103 MPGe (which is one of the highest out of the Teslas) the my price per mile is 4.23 / 103 = about 4 cents per mile

Certain times of day you can get electricity much cheaper and that'll help, but otherwise using MPG and MPGe with a bit of math will tell you on average if you drive conservatively how much each will cost to operate from Point A to Point B. So, it can be pretty useful. You'd have to do the same math with energy/mi realizing that gasoline is cheaper per "kWh"

 

[Chopr147]

Like energy/mile Duhhh

This may be good a few years from now but when over 90% of vehicles on the road are ICE, we need a MPG comparison. It just gives us a better idea of energy per mile comparison.
Personally I will get the lowest battery size for the Model ☰ which on average will be less than 30 miles a day, as a second car. And WTH it gets 100 MPG

 

[SageBrush]

using MPG and MPGe with a bit of math

Thanks for emphasizing my point. All that arithmetic instead of starting from miles/kWh

Go ahead though, and tell me your guess what fraction of the adult American populace know that a gallon of petrol contains ~ 33.7 kWh of energy.

 

[JeffK]

Thanks for emphasizing my point. All that arithmetic instead of starting from miles/kWh

Go ahead though, and tell me your guess what fraction of the adult American populace know that a gallon of petrol contains ~ 33.7 kWh of energy.

Only people who ask themselves what the heck is MPGe and then have the ambition to actually look it up. Even a smaller percentage will actually break out the math.

 

[Chopr147]

Go ahead though, and tell me your guess what fraction of the adult American populace know that a gallon of petrol contains ~ 33.7 kWh of energy.

What fraction care?
I do care somewhat but no I didn't know

 

[JeffK]

What fraction care?
I do care somewhat but no I didn't know

I just ask myself which is going to be more fun to drive.

Those who care often just like the highest number and blindly assume they are going to save more money when that's not always true.

 

[SageBrush]

This may be good a few years from now but when over 90% of vehicles on the road are ICE, we need a MPG comparison. It just gives us a better idea of energy per mile comparison.

Hardly. You are comparing different fuels and different sources as if they are the same.

This is the RAV EV 'extender.' The generator being towed burns petrol to make electricity for the EV. The generator is around 20% efficient, good for around 60 MPGe in the RAV. Do you really think that less energy/mile is used in this configuration than burning the petrol directly in an ICE RAV that gets ~ 30 MPG ?!?.

 

[SageBrush]

What fraction care?

You are side-stepping the point. If the overwhelming fraction of populace have no idea that a gallon of petrol contains 33.7 kWh of energy, how can they use MPGe to ascertain relative energy cost/distance measurements between an ICE and an EV ?

It is blindingly obvious that they cannot, so any utility you or Jeff ascribe to MPGe must come from somewhere else.

 

[JeffK]

You are side-stepping the point. If the overwhelming fraction of populace have no idea that a gallon of petrol contains 33.7 kWh of energy, how can they use MPGe to ascertain relative energy cost/distance measurements between an ICE and an EV ?

It is blindingly obvious that they cannot, so any utility you or Jeff ascribe to MPGe must come from somewhere else.

We'd have to assume a working knowledge of the definition of MPGe otherwise, yeah, it's a useless number to most people which is why they'll typically fall back to getting the most range.

 

[Chopr147]

Hardly. You are comparing different fuels and different sources as if they are the same.

This mpg-equivalent (MPGe) figure is how the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) converts the power used by an electric vehicle into a term that's familiar to most Americans
Call it dumb but this is the reason and it is logical to a point

 

[garsh]

I agree margins will be slimmer on the 3. That's an amazing base price. I'm guessing they're banking on optioned vehicles to once again skew margins upward to a reasonable level.

In the beginning, yes. As production ramps up, they're hoping to make the production line more efficient (more robots, fewer humans, faster line speed).

If they actually manage to take humans out of the production line, they really should be able to speed things up, run the line 24/7, and have far less "rework" required from human-made mistakes.

Hell, with autopilot standard, they could even have the cars drive off and park themselves somewhere when they reach the end of the line.