SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Hybrid, yes, but ALL motive power is from petrol. The MPG of a hybrid will always exactly equal the MPGe. This is true for any all petrol car, as it is for the cars you call "ICE."
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SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Not by the definition, but perhaps you are extrapolating ?
At the risk of mentioning the obvious
MPG is miles per gallon of petrol
One gallon of petrol is rated as 33.4 kWh energy content (or maybe 33.7 kWh ... I've forgotten)
MPGe is miles per 33.4 KWh; in the case of electricity, measured at the presumed home meter
According to this...
Gasoline gallon equivalent - Wikipedia
... it's 33.41 for "Gasoline (base)".
But then if you follow the MPGe link to here...
Miles per gallon gasoline equivalent - Wikipedia
... it's 33.7 for "EPA formula".
I'm sure if you click a few more links, they'll include a dozen other numbers just to make sure everyone is thoroughly confused. That's the game after all.
Zaphod
Galaxy President (former)
Your definition of POS is very different than what I am used to.
That's not happening because of constant R&D, retooling. Elon's the type to forgo short-term profits in order to achieve the bigger picture, which is a constant. Though at this rate, it's quite easy to believe Tesla will be profitable in the next few years.
omgwtfbyobbq
Active Member
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I think his point is that MPGe does not take into account the fraction of driving that is via ICE. I suppose one could argue the reverse too, that the MPG does not take into account the EV fraction.
However, since the sticker has both a "pure" MPG and "pure" MPGe for ICE and EV mode, it is left to the consumer to estimate the fraction of driving in each mode. In that sense small battery plug-ins have a marketing advantage since the MPGe will not reflect the shorter EV range.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Yes, and the chart below the MPG/MPGe rating and range as dispayed in Compare Side-by-Side page at the EPA's website shows a comparative cost to operate over the course of five years. The amounts shown there seem... OFF. I couldn't figure out why at first. That's when I realized that the calculations were weighted in favor of ICE, to bring them as close as possible to EV -- not the other way around. The Monroney sticker only shows the top part of the chart, not the bottom. But the implication is still there, that you calculate what you expect to pay for gasoline in your area for your personalized expenses to operate a particular vehicle.
In particular, tiny, fully electric cars with short range and low capacity battery packs are more likely to get an MPGe rating over 100... even if the actual range of the car is less than 80 miles. And, at the same time, plugin hybrid vehicles with an extremely short fully electric range, under 40 miles and often as low as 20 miles are rewarded with an MPGe rating of 80 or more. When you look at only the energy consumption, as the formula you annotate suggests, those numbers never line up with the MPGe those cars are rewarded with, but when you mix in the financial consideration it... might. I'm still not convinced MPGe actually makes any sense at all no matter how the numbers are parsed.
That cannot apply to everyone, equally. Some people need to take a break every hour, some people every 5-6 hours, some even more. We cannot assume that one person is less safe than the other solely on length of time behind the wheel. If that were the case, truck drivers would really be behind schedule . In my 25+ years of dealing with motor vehicle collisions involving injury, on highways, only once have I seen a tractor trailer be at fault. This suggests they can be pretty safe, even without stops every 2-3 hours.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
EXACTLY! Also, there is the way things are presented graphically. On the Monroney sticker for an ICE, the combined fuel economy rating that determines the range for the car as a whole appears on the left, and is often printed in a larger typeface than for City or Highway numbers. For a plugin Hybrid, the combined rating for electric only operation appears as MPGe on the left, while MPGis on the right for the ICE portion of the car. That makes it seem as though the fuel economy rating for the EV portion covers the car as a whole -- when there is in fact NO actual 'overall' rating given at all.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
You have provided anecdotal evidence from limited experience... we can say with certainty that the Joshua Brown incident had a tractor trailer fail to yield and it was officially listed as that on the police report. That same truck driver was previously cited for driving over the legal limit of hours per day. If that's not your one reference then I've increased your incidents by an additional 100% right there.
In 2013 FMCSA changed the rules to limiting truck drivers to fewer hours of service which in their words "It is estimated that these new safety regulations will save 19 lives and prevent approximately 1,400 crashes and 560 injuries each year."
Humans need breaks, it's just a fact of life.
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
Well I'm using a sub 100 mile range Leaf as my primary car so I'm confident I can grab the lowest range Tesla that isn't a roadster and be happy.
Give me a 3, S, X, Y, with a >50 kWh pack and I'm good. They might get me to buy an option or two. I'll surely pay for self driving one of these days.
I just don't need OMG it can't drive 500 miles style range. Whatever range the lowest battery has is more than enough for me.
omgwtfbyobbq
Active Member
The sticker also has a graphic showing how much range a drive can travel on electricity/gas right below the MPGe and MPG ratings. Granted, at least some people can miss anything, but that's on that person given the location of that graphic.
2014 Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
That is the Plug in Hybrid not the Hybrid eco mentioned up thread.
The discussion the past few pages has been about Prius with NO plug vs MPGe.
omgwtfbyobbq
Active Member
⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️
Village Idiot
Foxhound199
Member
Maybe they want to know if we still think it will be an amazing car with no options at all. My vote is yes, but it's an apples to oranges comparison. It won't be luxurious by the standards of other luxury companies, but I believe the base interior will still be high quality and the car will be capable of things other entry-level luxury cars aren't. But all of this is going to come down to a matter of taste. If you want objective proof that it will be better, I don't think you're going to find it.
omgwtfbyobbq
Active Member
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