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topher wrote, "Once we all agree that EV is the eventual end goal, hybrids just delay that."

I agree with all these points, but I must point out the qualitative nature of each argument*. It is for this reason I prefer to support both approaches.

*From Topher, no less. ;-)
Wait... I've said the same thing over and over again. You never agreed. You just kept saying you think that PHEV is a good idea. Delaying the transition to fully electric transportation is NOT a good idea. It has already been delayed, quite purposefully by traditional automobile manufacturers and petroleum concerns, for a bit over 100 years.
 
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I get what you are saying, I was talking about a race, not a track record. I guess you could race a single lap, sure. Have fun with that. I am admittedly not a huge auto racing fan (MotoGP is interesting though), but I can't think of a race that is only a single lap or otherwise short distance aside from drag racing.

Aside from drag racing, there are many automotive competitions that are in effect races against the clock. They are called variously autocross, solo, time trials, hill climbs, etc. Most of these are ONE LAP; lowest time wins. I have competed in hundreds of these type of competitions. For instance:
How Do I Autocross? - Sports Car Club of America.

Also common in many other sports: bicycle racing, skiing, etc.
 
You don't like the word conservation. OK

My excess generation of PV results in less fossil fuel use at the power plant. Are we good ?
No it doesn't. The power plant uses fossil fuels all the time, 24 hours per day. They don't stop. They don't shut down. They don't throttle back. Your photovoltaic energy generation goes into the grid as surplus, allowing some of the energy used in your region to be clean, or clean(er) than it would have been. But just as excess energy from the power plant goes wasted, so does excess energy from solar panels, once the electric utility decides to purge it. (Because it is highly unlikely the utility will export the solar energy to someone else.)

3,000th post! w00+!!! :cool::):p;):D
 
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No it doesn't. The power plant uses fossil fuels all the time, 24 hours per day. They don't stop. They don't shut down. They don't throttle back. Your photovoltaic energy generation goes into the grid as surplus, allowing some of the energy used in your region to be clean, or clean(er) than it would have been. But just as excess energy from the power plant goes wasted, so does excess energy from solar panels, once the electric utility decides to purge it. (Because it is highly unlikely the utility will export the solar energy to someone else.)

That's just not true... power plants very much "throttle" up and down based on demand, and many do in fact shut down and turn back on in response to large load changes... that's the entire job of a peaker plant.
 
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Aside from drag racing, there are many automotive competitions that are in effect races against the clock. They are called variously autocross, solo, time trials, hill climbs, etc. Most of these are ONE LAP; lowest time wins. I have competed in hundreds of these type of competitions. For instance:
How Do I Autocross? - Sports Car Club of America.

Also common in many other sports: bicycle racing, skiing, etc.
Correct. Rally races are a type of endurance time trial done over multiple stages and over various types of terrain and in a range of weather conditions. There is even a race called simply 'One Lap of America' that was begun, I believe, by Brock Yates, a longtime Editor-at-Large for Car and Driver magazine.
 
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No it doesn't. The power plant uses fossil fuels all the time, 24 hours per day. They don't stop. They don't shut down. They don't throttle back. Your photovoltaic energy generation goes into the grid as surplus, allowing some of the energy used in your region to be clean, or clean(er) than it would have been. But just as excess energy from the power plant goes wasted, so does excess energy from solar panels, once the electric utility decides to purge it. (Because it is highly unlikely the utility will export the solar energy to someone else.)
If true, would it not then follow that carbon emissions do not go down as clean energy comes online, unless fossil plants are closed ?
 
That's just not true... power plants very much "throttle" up and down based on demand, and many do in fact shut down and turn back on in response to large load changes... that's the entire job of a peaker plant.
The 'peaker plant' is not the POWER PLANT. It is a site that is used during peak periods to handle loads above and beyond the norm. The regular Power Plant, depending on its design, takes anywhere from hours to days to shut down completely. The use of solar power with industrial level battery backup can handle the loads of the peaker plants more efficiently.
 
If true, would it not then follow that carbon emissions do not go down as clean energy comes online, unless fossil plants are closed ?
Fossil plants are being closed, all the time. At an industrial level, as coal plants are put out of service, they are generally replaced by natural gas (methane) turbine generator plants. Because they cost less to build, are cleaner to operate, and are far more energy efficient than coal plants ever were or ever could be. Tesla Energy (SolarCity?) is now working with electric utilities to supplement their backup systems with battery storage, so that energy from solar and renewable sources can be used as a sort of large scale uninterruptible power supply. That allows for the eventual installation of fewer fossil fuel plants and greater adoption of clean energy. Just a few years ago coal power was reported as high as 48% of all electricity generation in the U.S. That dropped to only 36% in recent years, and is now at only 30%. One fossil fuel at a time, but they will all go away.
 
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Sure, massive battery backup is a great technology moving forward, and will probably eventually replace peaker plants.
However, a peaker plant most certainly IS a power plant, and exactly the type of highly polluting one that residential PV can help to prevent from turning on, keeping the overall grid cleaner.

It will be a much longer time before a sufficient amount of battery capacity is present to also replace all load following plants, at which point there would just be base load plants and your assertion that they don't throttle back would be satisfied.... That's easily 20 years from now.
 
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Fossil plants are being closed, all the time. At an industrial level, as coal plants are put out of service, they are generally replaced by natural gas (methane) turbine generator plants. Because they cost less to build, are cleaner to operate, and are far more energy efficient than coal plants ever were or ever could be. Tesla Energy (SolarCity?) is now working with electric utilities to supplement their backup systems with battery storage, so that energy from solar and renewable sources can be used as a sort of large scale uninterruptible power supply. That allows for the eventual installation of fewer fossil fuel plants and greater adoption of clean energy. Just a few years ago coal power was reported as high as 48% of all electricity generation in the U.S. That dropped to only 36% in recent years, and is now at only 30%. One fossil fuel at a time, but they will all go away.
I agree with all this, but it does not answer my question which really relates to whether coal plants can and do throttle. Here is what Wikipedia has to say on the matter:
Coal based power plants[edit]
Large size coal fired thermal power plants can also be used as load following / variable load power stations. These power plants are generally incorporated with following features to achieve this flexibility techno economically.

  • Sliding pressure operation: Sliding pressure operation of the steam generator allows the power plant to generate electricity without much deterioration in fuel efficiency at part load operation up to 75% of the nameplate capacity.
  • Over loading capability: The power plants are generally designed to run at 5 to 7% above the name plate rating for 5% duration in a year
  • Frequency follow governor controls: The load generation can be automatically varied to suit the grid frequency needs.
  • Two shift daily operation for five days in a week: The needed warm and hot start up of these power stations are designed to take lesser time to achieve full load operation. Thus these power plants are not strictly base load power generation units.
  • HP/LP steam bypass systems: This feature allows the steam turbo generator to reduce the load quickly and allows the steam generator to adjust to the load requirement with a lag.
 
No it doesn't. The power plant uses fossil fuels all the time, 24 hours per day. They don't stop. They don't shut down. They don't throttle back. [...]

Here's some more evidence to support others' statements that this is simply not true - see the attached chart from: Rising solar generation in California coincides with negative wholesale electricity prices - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
cageneration170311.png


In particular notice the shape of the orange/brown "thermal" portion of the chart which includes fossil generation.

You can clearly see that around 6pm, there is what looks like 3-4 times the amount of electricity being generated as at noon. The main reason why? Solar makes up the difference.

California also imports a huge amount of electricity - and as you can see the amount imported also varies greatly on an hour-by-hour basis to accommodate demand net of solar production.
 
topher wrote, "Once we all agree that EV is the eventual end goal, hybrids just delay that."


Wait... I've said the same thing over and over again. You never agreed. You just kept saying you think that PHEV is a good idea. Delaying the transition to fully electric transportation is NOT a good idea. It has already been delayed, quite purposefully by traditional automobile manufacturers and petroleum concerns, for a bit over 100 years.
Sorry, I was not clear. I was agreeing in a qualitative way with Topher's arguments, though perhaps not his conclusion. And that sentence I just wrote sounds fuzzy as well ...
I support both because of uncertainty in how prices of EVs will drop in the future and the rate that the grid will clean up its mess.
 
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My excess generation of PV

The environment paid the price for those PV panels, there is no 'excess'. They need to be working as much and as long as possible. You are making more than you are using, but that isn't an excess as far as the planet is concerned.

In particular notice the shape of the orange/brown "thermal" portion of the chart which includes fossil generation.

Also notice the portion where the price drops below $0. If it were possible to shut off the orange/brown generators, rather than paying someone to take the electricity, don't you think they would?

That said, matching the load to production is complicated, and all simple explanations are likely to be wrong. Shut down times and costs vary all over the place.

Thank you kindly.
 
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The environment paid the price for those PV panels, there is no 'excess'. They need to be working as much and as long as possible. You are making more than you are using, but that isn't an excess as far as the planet is concerned.

[...]
In particular notice the shape of the orange/brown "thermal" portion of the chart which includes fossil generation.

You can clearly see that around 6pm, there is what looks like 3-4 times the amount of electricity being generated as at noon. The main reason why? Solar makes up the difference.[...]


Also notice the portion where the price drops below $0. If it were possible to shut off the orange/brown generators, rather than paying someone to take the electricity, don't you think they would?

That said, matching the load to production is complicated, and all simple explanations are likely to be wrong. Shut down times and costs vary all over the place.
[...]

You're imputing an argument to me that I wasn't trying to make - I fully understand that there are significant limits to how quickly a power plant can ramp its production and the chart I pulled was provided from a context to illustrate this point.

I was just trying to refute RedSage's excessively absolute claim that fossil power doesn't get throttled.

Negative wholesale prices are now routine in the CA market in the spring and fall when electricity demand for AC is relatively low, but solar production is still relatively high, and plants can't be shut down or peak demand would not be met due to their inability to ramp back up quickly enough.

The issue you raise will be addressed over time with more and better storage technology, but is something we're probably stuck with in the near term.
 
Negative wholesale prices are now routine in the CA market in the spring and fall when electricity demand for AC is relatively low, but solar production is still relatively high, and plants can't be shut down or peak demand would not be met due to their inability to ramp back up quickly enough.
Or the utilities do not want to shut down coal plants, or import contracts restrict flexibility, or ...

There is currently about 18 GW of inflexible power, I suspect mostly related to money. That will change
 
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You're imputing an argument to me that I wasn't trying to make

I wasn't trying to refute your argument (especially not one you didn't make), just adding another point of interest.

I was just trying to refute RedSage's excessively absolute claim that fossil power doesn't get throttled.

Yeah, he is wrong about that (or rather hiding the distinction in his definition of 'power plant'). As I said it is complicated.

Thank you kindly.
 
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I guess it depends upon what one calls 'throttling'. To me, that means the ability to randomly, almost instantly, set the output to any point between zero, maximum, or 'overdrive' at a whim. You cannot do that with power plants that use fossil fuels. There is a certain baseline minimum they cannot go below, and they are burning fossil fuels at that minimal rate, which is well above zero, anytime they are on at all. If there is a lever on the wall, or dial/slider on the control panel with markings that read 50%, 80%, 100%, 125%, and 150%...? Switching between 80%, 100%, and 125% at different times of the day do not qualify as 'throttling' in my mind, especially if it takes several minutes to a few hours to reach that output level. And no one will turn an old school coal plant to zero during the course of a day, hoping to turn it back up to 100% the following day. Some newer ones might be a bit more flexible.
 
I get what you are saying, I was talking about a race, not a track record. I guess you could race a single lap, sure. Have fun with that. I am admittedly not a huge auto racing fan (MotoGP is interesting though), but I can't think of a race that is only a single lap or otherwise short distance aside from drag racing.

To answer your questions, no handicap, just a heads-up race, sure, 36 laps. First to finish wins. That's how races work, right? Who is moving the goalposts? You put a few words in my mouth there (which you seem to like to do). 12 hours is not going to win against much. I'd bet a school bus can go 500 miles in less time.
In auto racing, there has been a constant move to prove the theorem, "It's not the MACHINE, it's the MAN." But over the years, it has become clear in certain instances, that it was indeed the MACHINE that was best on the track. Each time that happened, there has been a move to handicap the vehicles that were best.

Sometimes it was by issuing a 'BLACK FLAG' to a driver, forcing them to come into the pits, and sit there a while, in order to allow other cars to catch up. Sometimes the handicap was in the way of giving a consistent winner a weight penalty on their car that steadily increased each time they won. And the most ridiculous handicap of all was to put the fastest cars from time trials prior to the race, not on the pole position (starting up front) but to put them at the back of the pack, starting dead last instead. The idea was to prove it was the MAN, not the MACHINE, by forcing that man to drive through the traffic of all the slow pokes that started ahead of him, instead of just running away from them all with a clear track ahead, building an insurmountable lead. I obviously protest such maneuvers and disagree entirely with their reasons for being enacted. Because to me, sometimes 'The MAN' brings a better MACHINE.

I believe such actions stifle ingenuity, innovation, and invention. Those who run race organizations prefer to have a preset 'formula' for what denotes the design parameters of the cars. But when something is introduced as a particular type of technology that is not actually illegal, but allows a distinct advantage for a particular racing team, they often end up being sanctioned as a result, nevertheless. If the sort of handicaps I spoke of before do not suffice, then the very next racing season new rules are drawn up that DO specifically outlaw the use of that technology.

There was once a race car called the CHAPPARAL 2J... It's designer had the awesome idea to increase roadholding, not with a gigantic downforce wing, but by almost completely sealing the chassis in ground effects mere millimeters off the ground, then using dual 17" electric fans at the rear to suck air from under the car and expel it from the back. That was banned immediately following the season, because it worked too well.


For a while, Formula One racing was being dominated by Honda and Ayrton Senna. Apparently, Honda broke the rules, because though the specialized fuel they used for their cars tested in the lab at below the maximum threshold for octane levels, when heated to the proper temperature within their engines, its octane level was actually much higher. Also, at a time when corporate sponsorship of racing teams was deemed to be 'out of control' it was learned that the engine management computer for Honda's race cars, were not in the car. Instead Supercomputers a world away were communicating with the car in practical real time, adjusting its performance on the fly based upon a variety of factors gleaned by sensors on the vehicle -- and that was considered 'unfair'. These and other things led F1 to completely revamp their formula and rule book. But in doing so they also removed certain safety equipment, decided that tires must be smaller, and chose to reign in the maximum power of the engines too.

IndyCar also went through a period when just about every major race was one by one team, PENSKE, with cars that finished repeatedly in all three podium positions. Effectively, everyone else in the field of cars was racing for fourth place. It was determined that too much money was being spent to support the top winners. So changes were made to eliminate the likelihood of that taking place in the future.

I bring up all this because I suspect that this is what will happen when it comes to electric cars. Longtime gearheads will continually dispute the accomplishments of electric vehicles. They will want to deny the excellence of their accomplishments and forego admitting that they were wrong. Perhaps you are not among them, but some of what you wrote before is certainly in that vein of thought. Innovation is its own excuse for existence. Accepting change is a fundamental part of life.