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Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle thread EELV (DoD) - SpaceX vs. ULA

Discussion in 'SpaceX' started by claytorj, Feb 18, 2014.

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  1. DaveT

    DaveT Searcher of green pastures

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    #21 DaveT, Mar 6, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2016
    Here's the YouTube link to the hearing.

     
  2. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    Not sure I understand your point. He did say the lost payload was secondary and optional by definition (surely reflected in an even lower price), while obviously the air force would ask only for primary and mandatory delivery in the first place. I'd be sure ULA never offered "optional" delivery for a correspondingly lower price, so that's out-of-competition. What exactly could he have said that he didn't say?
     
  3. Mario Kadastik

    Mario Kadastik Active Member

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    The way it went he didn't really go into the details. He mentioned it was secondary that was lost and that primary was successful and then poked fun at ULA definition of success. The floor went back to the senator who asked ULA about it and they claimed of course a loss of satellite is not success and that's how the senator took it and the discussion moved on. So I considered that a loss of argument for Tesla albeit a minor one. Had he claimed immediately that the primary mission was for NASA and the secondary was conditional on NASA allowance and that the vehicle performed perfectly delivering NASA payload and could have delivered also the secondary, but NASA vetoed it and that was a risk known to the secondary payload customer. THAT answer would have been to the regulators a fully understandable answer. Right now Elon got his jibe at ULA, but lost the power of argument on it. He's human and I fully understand his wish to put some sarcasm in there, but it possibly could have helped SpaceX more if he hadn't ;)

    I think that particular response was about the only minor loss for Elon, he did gain a lot of support from all of his other arguments and I seriously cannot understand how US Military and intelligence satellites could be launched on Atlas rockets if they have Russian made components. Also the responses by the ULA CEO were all about familiarity, his long history and capabilities, but if you looked at his statements about how others are doing far better than their engineers said even possible theoretically and how consolidating and innovating is the way forward he was effectively playing into Elon's hands ;) And the senator who showed the chart was extremely well impressed by SpaceX and understood that ULA is abusing their position. I sure hope that this leads to SpaceX getting more and more contracts and I did love the fact that SpaceX is happy to take all the contracts and doesn't need the 1B subsidy ;) That kind of put things into perspective. And the discussion on cost of overhead of full disclosure into costs and resources involved that increases the launch cost. The senator was hoping the price difference comes down without realizing that SpaceX calculations ALREADY included this extra overhead bringing launch costs from 60M to 90M :) Still saving 280M per launch in comparison. I think that might have been a sour pill to figure out by the senator who seemed very pro-ULA.

    Anyway, let's see how it goes :) But I think it was a good and informative discussion and I laughed out loud when ULA CEO claimed that they can and will compete successfully in direct competition with SpaceX under equivalent conditions. Riiight.
     
  4. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    Mario, that as well was my impression of that particular exchange between Senator Shelby and Elon.


    I also found it a bit embarrassing when the ULA executive said they went to Russia and saw things their engineers didn't know was possible, but now they think they can make that Russian engine themselves if they had to. That doesn't really inspire confidence.
     
  5. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    Thanks, I think I see your point now. While I don't know enough about the details of the situation to tell how easily, or not, NASA could have made a different decision, I think the danger there would have been that it might have come across as if he was trying to blame NASA, or not respecting NASA's judgement that there might have been a risk to the primary mission otherwise.

    I do think that ULA's CEO tried to paint a black-and-white picture, and that Elon was able to point that out. Even if of course this (quite obviously biased) Senator and ULA where playing balls into each others court, and then declaring an end of the discussion at a point convenient to them. After all, ULA does have a good track record with its longer history.

    Agree, it seems he wasn't used to being challenged in his monopoly position, and indirectly helped Elon make his points.

    Agree again, he tried to play invincible, but I think it showed he wasn't sure at all what to make of this new situation, and that underneath he was afraid of having a tough time ahead.
     
  6. ggr

    ggr Expert in Dunning-Kruger Effect!

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    russian-engine-on-rocket-needs-u-s-review-hagel-says has a great quote in it, from Gass:

    ... and we invested hundreds of millions to advertise that we invested...

    Musk, on the other hand, invested (only) hundreds of millions to actually design and build even better engines.
     
  7. claytorj

    claytorj Member

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  8. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    Actually, I thought the point about the difference, i.e. the need for mission assurance, was made rather clear in the hearing. Though I don't know what about the Air Force certifications go above and beyond what NASA does. I would think approaching the ISS where there is risk to the expensive station as well as the lives on board would be rather strict. But I guess that's more about the Dragon rather than the Falcon.
     
  9. claytorj

    claytorj Member

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    I took it as not comparing it to Nasa Commercial Crew (as SpaceX is not certified for this yet), but rather comparing it to Nasa Commercial Cargo.
     
  10. claytorj

    claytorj Member

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    Interesting developments

    Breaking News: Proposal Seeks End To Atlas V AmericaSpace
     
  11. claytorj

    claytorj Member

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    Also this

    RD - 180 The Russian Backbone of the US Space Program | ASP
     
  12. claytorj

    claytorj Member

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  13. claytorj

    claytorj Member

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  14. jeff_adams

    jeff_adams Member

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    The Russians are really gonna rue the day they mocked Elon. All they had to do was sell him some old ICBMs that probably wouldn't even have made it to Mars.

    They will lose so much business competing with SpaceX. I hope he shows no mercy.
     
  15. claytorj

    claytorj Member

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