Exclusive first Model 3 Dyno

[voip-ninja]

It could end up more than that. Or less. I see no reason to doubt it'll have LR, AWD, PUP, and air suspension as a forced bundle. That's roughly 35K+9K+4K+5K+$2K = $55K. With old xxD -> PxxD pricing, the Performance M3 price could easily come in at $65K (before paint, AP, FSB).

Mind you the performance bump from the 85D to the $10K more P85D is, I'm lead to understand, was something but not really a blow-you-away affair.

However if Tesla decides that the Model 3 is going to be more like the mind-melting jump that the 100D -> P100D is, then they'll almost certainly price accordingly and push the price up well over $70K.

I guess the question is where they think there's a hole in their product like to slot it in at? *shrug*

No disagreement from me.

It's going to come down to what the performance delta is between the "regular" AWD Model-3 and other $55K-$65K performance sedans from BMW, Cadillac, Mercedes.

Musk seems to normally want to shove their faces in the dirt so I would expect that the performance Model-3 will be tuned to be only marginally slower than the P100D and priced accordingly.

 

[MountainPass]

The torque and power discussion can be confusing, but the best way to wrap your head around it is to understand that horsepower is simply torque multiplied by speed. I'm just going to throw this post in here for general knowledge to give some context. I hope it is somewhat helpful!

Torque at wheels is the torque at the motor, multiplied by the total gear ratio. So while torque at the wheels is higher, the horsepower is the same - the gear ratio traded motor speed for torque (the wheels spin more slowly, with more torque).

When you see dyno's reporting torque, they are taking the measurement of horsepower (or more accurately, dyno roller torque and dyno roller speed) and multiplying by the user entered gear ratio to get torque at the motor. If the dyno operator does not enter the gear ratio correctly, you will get incorrect motor torque readings. However, the horsepower reading will always be correct as that is directly derived from the dyno's measurements.

When it comes to electric single speed motors, the "motor torque" value actually is inconsequential. All that matters is the horsepower and the shape of the horsepower curve related to the speed of the vehicle.

For example, a motor with 600lb-ft of torque that only spins to 6000rpm is less desirable than a motor with 350lb-ft of torque that spins to 12,000rpm. Assuming both motors could carry their peak torque to max motor speed, the 350lb-ft motor would have 800HP, where the 600lb-ft motor would have 685hp.

In this case, since both motors need to be geared to achieve the same top speed, once you put a longer gear ratio on the higher torque motor, you end up with less torque at the axle compared to the lower torque, higher speed motor.

The difference is exactly the difference in horsepower. If both motors have the same torque curve, the 350lb-ft motor would have 17% more power and axle torque across the board (800HP / 685HP).

To bring it around full circle: torque at the axle * axle rpm = Horsepower. If you want to try the math the exact formulas are:

(Motor Torque (lb-ft) * Motor RPM) / 5252 = HP
(Axle Torque(lb-ft) * Axle RPM) / 5252 = HP

So all you need to look at is the horsepower graph, the motor torque is relatively meaningless without the context of the gear ratio and motor speed!

 

[JWiC]

The torque and power discussion can be confusing, but the best way to wrap your head around it is to understand that horsepower is simply torque multiplied by speed. I'm just going to throw this post in here for general knowledge to give some context. I hope it is somewhat helpful!

Torque at wheels is the torque at the motor, multiplied by the total gear ratio. So while torque at the wheels is higher, the horsepower is the same - the gear ratio traded motor speed for torque (the wheels spin more slowly, with more torque).

When you see dyno's reporting torque, they are taking the measurement of horsepower (or more accurately, dyno roller torque and dyno roller speed) and multiplying by the user entered gear ratio to get torque at the motor. If the dyno operator does not enter the gear ratio correctly, you will get incorrect motor torque readings. However, the horsepower reading will always be correct as that is directly derived from the dyno's measurements.

When it comes to electric single speed motors, the "motor torque" value actually is inconsequential. All that matters is the horsepower and the shape of the horsepower curve related to the speed of the vehicle.

For example, a motor with 600lb-ft of torque that only spins to 6000rpm is less desirable than a motor with 350lb-ft of torque that spins to 12,000rpm. Assuming both motors could carry their peak torque to max motor speed, the 350lb-ft motor would have 800HP, where the 600lb-ft motor would have 685hp.

In this case, since both motors need to be geared to achieve the same top speed, once you put a longer gear ratio on the higher torque motor, you end up with less torque at the axle compared to the lower torque, higher speed motor.

The difference is exactly the difference in horsepower. If both motors have the same torque curve, the 350lb-ft motor would have 17% more power and axle torque across the board (800HP / 685HP).

To bring it around full circle: torque at the axle * axle rpm = Horsepower. If you want to try the math the exact formulas are:

(Motor Torque (lb-ft) * Motor RPM) / 5252 = HP
(Axle Torque(lb-ft) * Axle RPM) / 5252 = HP

So all you need to look at is the horsepower graph, the motor torque is relatively meaningless without the context of the gear ratio and motor speed!

Hmm, so does this explain why a Model S has the faster 0-60 than the Jaguar IPace even though they weigh about the same yet the Jag has both higher torque and horsepower? The Model S has a lower gear ratio and/or higher motor speed?

Jaguar I-Pace vs. Tesla Model X and Model S: How they compare on paper

 

[MP3Mike]

Hmm, so does this explain why a Model S has the faster 0-60 than the Jaguar IPace even though they weigh about the same yet the Jag has both higher torque and horsepower? The Model S has a lower gear ratio and/or higher motor speed?

The Model S has a lower cd than the IPace if I recall correctly, though I'm not sure how much that will impact a 0-60 run.

 

[Big Earl]

Hmm, so does this explain why a Model S has the faster 0-60 than the Jaguar IPace even though they weigh about the same yet the Jag has both higher torque and horsepower? The Model S has a lower gear ratio and/or higher motor speed?

Jaguar I-Pace vs. Tesla Model X and Model S: How they compare on paper

Are the Model S specs pre-uncorking or post-uncorking?

 

[McRat]

The Model S has a lower cd than the IPace if I recall correctly, though I'm not sure how much that will impact a 0-60 run.

Not at all. The allowable variation in timing equipment is greater.

 

[xav-]

Thanks for doing the test and posting it here!

The recent Edmunds track test suggests to me those 4.6 range numbers we've seen online were with a rollout. In the video below, Edmunds did a couple of runs and got 5.3 seconds, and 4.9 seconds with a rollout. So, makes sense someone hitting Tesla's spec or a tick lower at 5.0 would get a rollout time around 4.6. This would be consistent with the OPs comment about Tesla sandbagging, and their dyno tests showing more like 250 hp from 30 mph, with the calculator JRP3 used coming up with 4.4 seconds for a 390 HP 3800 pound car.

Not to be lost in all of this, very impressive car, and really looking forward to delivery : )

Likely the test is slower because of the 18 inch wheels

 

[insaneoctane]

I am confused about the statement that Tesla has "hidden". .. What are you thinking, specifically?

 

[Martin 3000]

Hope insurance companies not watching

 

[JRP3]

Why?

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Likely the test is slower because of the 18 inch wheels

That's my feeling too. Tesla's only publishing one set of specs, so they are likely using the higher 0-60 time with Aero wheels, the lower range with Sport wheels, and so on. Get Aero wheels and your range will probably be higher. Get Sport wheels and your 0-60 will probably be lower.

 

[ForeverFree]

That's my feeling too. Tesla's only publishing one set of specs, so they are likely using the higher 0-60 time with Aero wheels, the lower range with Sport wheels, and so on. Get Aero wheels and your range will probably be higher. Get Sport wheels and your 0-60 will probably be lower.

Need help understanding, please, why 0-60 would be faster with 19" wheels than 18"? Total wheel + tire diameter, and thus gearing ratio, is the same, isn't it? (Bigger wheels --> lower profile tire?)

 

[McRat]

That's my feeling too. Tesla's only publishing one set of specs, so they are likely using the higher 0-60 time with Aero wheels, the lower range with Sport wheels, and so on. Get Aero wheels and your range will probably be higher. Get Sport wheels and your 0-60 will probably be lower.

In drag racing, using smaller, lighter wheels, and taller tires with more sidewall flex can give you better grip.
It's really hard to get a good launch on modern ultra low profile tires on big rims.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Need help understanding, please, why 0-60 would be faster with 19" wheels than 18"? Total wheel + tire diameter, and thus gearing ratio, is the same, isn't it? (Bigger wheels --> lower profile tire?)

Sportier tires with stickier compound compared to lower rolling resistance tires with harder compound. The Aero caps also add a few percent to range. It's not a huge difference, but it's enough to noticably drop the range of a car with the Sport wheels (about 10% less range at 55mph per Tesla's EPA application) and drop the acceleration of a car with Aero wheels (about 10% slower 0-60).

 

[Mysterylectric]

Hope insurance companies not watching

What does this have to do with insurance?

 

[Boludo]

Can someone please help me understand why the disabling of ABS had anything to do with it?

 

[mongo]

Can someone please help me understand why the disabling of ABS had anything to do with it?

Pulling the connection for the ABS sensor disabled traction control allowing wheel spin and preventing automatic braking on turns followed by momentary lack of power if a tire broke loose.


Or something like that...

 

[Mysterylectric]

Can someone please help me understand why the disabling of ABS had anything to do with it?

Traction control is non-defeatable in these cars. The traction system works by measuring wheel speed through the ABS sensors, and killing power if the drive wheels spin faster than the steers. Pulling the sensor removes a necessary input for the system to work with, so it fully disables the system, allowing us to run the car in a stationary environment without the computer taking over.

 

[Boludo]

That's really interesting. I never knew the Transaction Control was somehow tied into the ABS. Too bad there's not a way to just disable fully the Transaction Control. In one of my cars I could disable TC about 90% but I had to do the "Peddle Dance" to fully disable it. Thanks for the replies.

 

[Krash]

We now have two Model 3 street 0-60 samples pulled from the API in the Performance Metrics. These use rollout so the app reported times might be 4.75-5.00. Torque is computed from the linear power acceleration. It is unclear as to whether the dip in power at 50mph is Back EMF, just an initial overshoot of the max power settings or something else. Would welcome data from a quarter mile run. The dyno reported 550 foot pounds of torque which is 748 Nm, or 75% higher than our figures. That would be more than the SP85+. I realize they are overriding some sensors to trick the car into over performing but think we suspect that the dyno torque calculations are misconfigured.