Existing Powerwall 2s to get 50% power capacity increase with SW update?

[h2ofun]

IMO, the 8 gauge is fine; but I'm 99% sure Contra Costa would deny the 40 amp breaker on the permit or inspection unless you could produce a spec sheet saying you needed the larger breaker. They've seen so many Powerwall 2's at this point with 30A, their inspectors would be kind of confused if a 40A showed up on the generation panel or TEG2 internal panelboard. At the current 5kW peak "capacity", you should put in a 30A breaker and nothing else.

So, I think the safest best is to get #8 conductors but keep the 30 Amp breakers for the PWs in the initial build. Plus you size all your sub panels, disconnects (yay), and other aspects to be able to handle the possibility of the Powerwalls exporting at 7.5 kW. And then if/when the firmware upgrade becomes available... you pull new permits and get 40A breakers put in when you authorize Tesla to update the "capacity" of your Powerwalls.

I'm not sure how the inspectors and permitting process are in your neck of the woods, but Contra Costa has "Garth" who is notorious for being a hard ass on code compliance. I guess Garth isn't as bad as the lady down there in Palo Alto. Anyway, Contra Costa has a relatively easy e-permitting tool would make something rather inexpensive to update the 30A to 40A if you sized in anticipation of it.

As I said, yep, was dumb for my installers to not use 8 gauge wire. But, I sure would not want PW's put in now until Tesla says what is going on.

I would love to get a new Honda mini van to replace the 5 year old one I have. But, it looks like the latest is the last version of this style type, and no way am I going to buy the last. Will wait a year until the first version of the new style comes out.

 

[Vines]

As I said, yep, was dumb for my installers to not use 8 gauge wire. But, I sure would not want PW's put in now until Tesla says what is going on.

I would love to get a new Honda mini van to replace the 5 year old one I have. But, it looks like the latest is the last version of this style type, and no way am I going to buy the last. Will wait a year until the first version of the new style comes out.

It was not dumb for your installers to use #10 wire, you do not have the information to make that determination. Most Powerwalls are installed with #10 conductors.

Let me ask you this, if you are changing your tires on your minivan, do you put minivan tires on it or heavy duty extra load truck tires? Is It Dumb to use the right size tires?

I mean if you are in Arizona and live on 10 miles of dirt roads maybe your answer is different, but 99% of people don't use heavier duty tires than their vehicle needs. This is like spending money with no benefit!

This is very nearly the same difference with the #10 vs #8 wire. #8 wire is only needed in certain circumstances, and whether Tesla might change things in the future is not that circumstance.

There is nothing official from Tesla that any installer should act on regarding 40A breakers and #8 wire. You are being unreasonable expecting more than you purchased. You owe your installers some money to install #8 wire after the fact.

It's honestly offensive to hear you say "We have a different perspective to customer service" after I have spent hours helping you for free. I pointed out where you are in the wrong in this case expecting something different from your installers contracted agreement.

 

[h2ofun]

It was not dumb for your installers to use #10 wire, you do not have the information to make that determination. Most Powerwalls are installed with #10 conductors.

Let me ask you this, if you are changing your tires on your minivan, do you put minivan tires on it or heavy duty extra load truck tires? Is It Dumb to use the right size tires?

I mean if you are in Arizona and live on 10 miles of dirt roads maybe your answer is different, but 99% of people don't use heavier duty tires than their vehicle needs. This is like spending money with no benefit!

This is very nearly the same difference with the #10 vs #8 wire. #8 wire is only needed in certain circumstances, and whether Tesla might change things in the future is not that circumstance.

There is nothing official from Tesla that any installer should act on regarding 40A breakers and #8 wire. You are being unreasonable expecting more than you purchased. You owe your installers some money to install #8 wire after the fact.

It's honestly offensive to hear you say "We have a different perspective to customer service" after I have spent hours helping you for free. I pointed out where you are in the wrong in this case expecting something different from your installers contracted agreement.

I have thanked you many times for your support! I thought a lot about what wording to use before I posted, since I felt you were attacking me. We have the right to have different opinions.

All I am doing is brainstorming and trying to collect data. I have not made any accusations on anyone. I guess I am just a forward planning person. When I was talking about internet for my house, I was told by everyone to skip hardwiring since everyone uses wi-fi now. I was told to just use cat 5 wiring. Instead, I wired every room in my house with cat 7! I thought I would never use it but guess what, I have ended putting firetv sticks on TVs in each room and the cat 7 is connected to all of them.

When I did wiring in my garage and house, everyone told me to just use 15amp, 14 gauge wire, since he was cheaper and easier to work with, But yep, I had put in instead 20 amp circuits with 12 gauge wiring.

When I changed my outlets from non white to white in my entire house to match the new paint, I could have bought the normal cheap 2 buck outlets. Instead, I bought like 80 outlets with usb plugs in them for 10 bucks a piece.

I replaced all windows in my house, 44 of them even though only a few needed to be replaced. But did I put in the standard? Nope, I put in windows with laminated glass. Most folks have never even heard of this, including my contractor. Yep, cost me 50% more, but only had one chance to do it.

I could give more examples where I have up sized most things I have done. So, this is just the nature of how I try and do things. Is it nuts? YEP!

So again, I am just trying to find information. Seems it is possible tesla is coming out with a PW3, and then yep, I missed the boat. Maybe PW 2.1 is
just the different feet as one has posted.

Again, the love to read every post you do for learning.

 

[Vines]

I have thanked you many times for your support! I thought a lot about what wording to use before I posted, since I felt you were attacking me. We have the right to have different opinions.

All I am doing is brainstorming and trying to collect data. I have not made any accusations on anyone. I guess I am just a forward planning person. When I was talking about internet for my house, I was told by everyone to skip hardwiring since everyone uses wi-fi now. I was told to just use cat 5 wiring. Instead, I wired every room in my house with cat 7! I thought I would never use it but guess what, I have ended putting firetv sticks on TVs in each room and the cat 7 is connected to all of them.

When I did wiring in my garage and house, everyone told me to just use 15amp, 14 gauge wire, since he was cheaper and easier to work with, But yep, I had put in instead 20 amp circuits with 12 gauge wiring.

When I changed my outlets from non white to white in my entire house to match the new paint, I could have bought the normal cheap 2 buck outlets. Instead, I bought like 80 outlets with usb plugs in them for 10 bucks a piece.

I replaced all windows in my house, 44 of them even though only a few needed to be replaced. But did I put in the standard? Nope, I put in windows with laminated glass. Most folks have never even heard of this, including my contractor. Yep, cost me 50% more, but only had one chance to do it.

I could give more examples where I have up sized most things I have done. So, this is just the nature of how I try and do things. Is it nuts? YEP!

So again, I am just trying to find information. Seems it is possible tesla is coming out with a PW3, and then yep, I missed the boat. Maybe PW 2.1 is
just the different feet as one has posted.

Again, the love to read every post you do for learning.

It seems like you are used to oversizing wires, in that case making that agreement with your installer before hand is appropriate.

As an installer, I felt like you are denigrating your installers who seem to have done a pretty good job with a demanding customer.

I also am sensitive to customers changing their minds after the contract is signed as the firm I work for relies on a fixed price contract, and that this makes our customers happy.

I have no idea which company installed your system, but likely I know them. I just felt like I had to stand up a bit more strongly when you kept talking about everyone needs to use 40A breakers and #8 wire.

I am 95% sure that for all the interconnection reasons and permit reasons, that a handful of systems which have no PTO submitted will get PTO with the larger Powerwall size when it materializes. I'll bet those systems are probably all under Tesla Energy, and had specific direction to install larger OCPD and conductors.

 

[MP3Mike]

I could give more examples where I have up sized most things I have done. So, this is just the nature of how I try and do things. Is it nuts? YEP!

But in all of those examples you spec'd the upsizing before the contract was signed and you paid for it. Here you have been saying that the contractor should upsize you beyond the specs, and contract terms, for free because you may be able to take advantage of it in the future. That is a big difference.

 

[cobra]

Interesting SPECs on Generac's new PWRCell product... makes me suspicious that Elon is making the Powerwall move for competition. You can see Generac positions it directly against Powerwall on their website, but show 9kW output and 50A surge. In my initial reading I thought it was fully released, but some of the battery modules sound like availability is spring of this year.
The advertising looks great... of course, then I looked at their iOS app for monitoring on the app store. It looks somewhat like the Tesla app, battery, grid, PV with power flow. But read the comments and you find it has terrible ratings. Sounds like it's new, they haven't got it setup to make mode changes for the system yet. And branded by... you'll recognize the name, Neurio.
They do have a nice setup with battery modules. Not as sleek looking as Tesla, but reachable in 3-6 module groups to change amount of capacity.

 

[h2ofun]

It seems like you are used to oversizing wires, in that case making that agreement with your installer before hand is appropriate.

As an installer, I felt like you are denigrating your installers who seem to have done a pretty good job with a demanding customer.

I also am sensitive to customers changing their minds after the contract is signed as the firm I work for relies on a fixed price contract, and that this makes our customers happy.

I have no idea which company installed your system, but likely I know them. I just felt like I had to stand up a bit more strongly when you kept talking about everyone needs to use 40A breakers and #8 wire.

I am 95% sure that for all the interconnection reasons and permit reasons, that a handful of systems which have no PTO submitted will get PTO with the larger Powerwall size when it materializes. I'll bet those systems are probably all under Tesla Energy, and had specific direction to install larger OCPD and conductors.

My installers have done a great job! I have nothing but positives to say. But, it seems I have done so many things they have never dealt with before that they have had a number of times they had to come back to me after design drawings were done by them and say opps, we just found out we cannot do this. This is why I have only 5 batteries now instead of 7. But am I blasting them? Nope. The guys coming to my house have said they have only seen one other 5 battery install, so as usual, I am unique.

They seem to have never put a 5 battery system in with 2 gateways with a whole house generator. Even the county inspector who saw the design when he was here to improve had never seen anything like my setup before.

So for whatever reason, I seem to push stuff that to me seems to simple and makes sense to consider. But guess this is why I was a system engineer for 30 years. I love to design big picture stuff.

My PTO paperwork was submitted last week with 5KW output. Until I find out what v2.1 is, vs what Tesla says this week. I just hate to have the old stuff, but in this case, that maybe the best it can be. And, since at 7.5Kw output, it would put me over 30KW system, I have no idea what PGE might do differently to my setup with this.

 

[Electrph]

It was not dumb for your installers to use #10 wire, you do not have the information to make that determination. Most Powerwalls are installed with #10 conductors.

Let me ask you this, if you are changing your tires on your minivan, do you put minivan tires on it or heavy duty extra load truck tires? Is It Dumb to use the right size tires?

I mean if you are in Arizona and live on 10 miles of dirt roads maybe your answer is different, but 99% of people don't use heavier duty tires than their vehicle needs. This is like spending money with no benefit!

This is very nearly the same difference with the #10 vs #8 wire. #8 wire is only needed in certain circumstances, and whether Tesla might change things in the future is not that circumstance.

There is nothing official from Tesla that any installer should act on regarding 40A breakers and #8 wire. You are being unreasonable expecting more than you purchased. You owe your installers some money to install #8 wire after the fact.

It's honestly offensive to hear you say "We have a different perspective to customer service" after I have spent hours helping you for free. I pointed out where you are in the wrong in this case expecting something different from your installers contracted agreement.

i feel many on here have tried to point the flaw in this logic out to him / her using different approaches but I don't think message is percieved or it is seen as an attack .. meh ... what are you gonna do

 

[jboy210]

I wonder if they are changing the amount of power so more people can do a whole house backup with a single powerwall. Since Tesla now only sells solar + PW this might get more customers to sign up.

 

[jboy210]

For me this is an interesting development.
My Whole Home backup with 2 Powerwalls was installed last June. They installed a SureStart on my air conditioning compressor (actually a heat pump) but it wasn't compatible and caused all sorts of problems so they had to remove it. Turns out they pulled the wrong version of my heat pump outside unit specification. The compressor only starts when the solar is producing. Otherwise, the Powerwall circuit shuts down for several seconds and then resets; and sends my HVAC system into tilt mode. When the compressor tries to start the cycle starts over if the solar panels aren't producing.
I've been working with Tesla Executive Resolutions since July to try to get this resolved. Its been very frustrating since I'm continuously told that a plan to resolve this is always a week or two away. They won't disclose to me what things they are considering, only that they'll provide a proposed solution once it has been reviewed and approved by Tesla management.
I wonder if this announcement plays into their proposed resolution.

Sounds like it could help in your situation. As long as the PWs are at 30C or less.

 

[aesculus]

I have an even bigger issue: My backup panel is maxed out with the number of breakers it has for PWs, solar inverters and the backup load. And they used a lot of breakers that were doubles etc.

So to take advantage of this an also move a breaker from backup to solar I would need another backup panel to boot. It would probably have to be larger too as currently they kind of fudged the backup load at 100 amps when it should have been 150 amps. Does not affect the PW load of course but since this is the grid load, it's kind of an potential issue.

Anyway I too will wait until all this settles especially since my PWs were installed in Jan of 2020.

 

[h2ofun]

I have an even bigger issue: My backup panel is maxed out with the number of breakers it has for PWs, solar inverters and the backup load. And they used a lot of breakers that were doubles etc.

So to take advantage of this an also move a breaker from backup to solar I would need another backup panel to boot. It would probably have to be larger too as currently they kind of fudged the backup load at 100 amps when it should have been 150 amps. Does not affect the PW load of course but since this is the grid load, it's kind of an potential issue.

Anyway I too will wait until all this settles especially since my PWs were installed in Jan of 2020.

what version are your PW's

 

[jhn_]

I wonder if they are changing the amount of power so more people can do a whole house backup with a single powerwall. Since Tesla now only sells solar + PW this might get more customers to sign up.

Yeah I think it is going to be exactly this and also to be able to say Tesla solar works when the grid is down. There are plenty of threads on this board and others around the internet of casual solar customers being very surprised after install when they have a grid outage and they can’t use the panels they just bought to get electricity.

Tesla is trying to keep it simple and go after the mass market with a true advantage. You can’t make a trillion dollar company on fanboi customers alone.

 

[Rapidrezults]

I was told by a friend that works at Tesla they are going to be rolling out an all-in-one Inverter/Gateway of some sort and do away with the current Gateway for simpler cleaner installs with PWs. I have no idea exactly what this means so take it with a grain of salt but that is definitely the plan for the near future.

 

[holeydonut]

I was told by a friend that works at Tesla they are going to be rolling out an all-in-one Inverter/Gateway of some sort and do away with the current Gateway for simpler cleaner installs with PWs. I have no idea exactly what this means so take it with a grain of salt but that is definitely the plan for the near future.

So this would imply that the future Powerwalls will be DC-coupled only since the Powerwalls would logically lose their inverter if Tesla integrated everything.

 

[lavalamp425]

I was told by a friend that works at Tesla they are going to be rolling out an all-in-one Inverter/Gateway of some sort and do away with the current Gateway for simpler cleaner installs with PWs. I have no idea exactly what this means so take it with a grain of salt but that is definitely the plan for the near future.

That actually doesn't make much sense to me, because then Tesla is integrating a (solar) inverter and/or Gateway functionality in EVERY Powerwall, instead of just needing one Gateway per 10 Powerwalls (or whatever it is now), plus one or two inverters depending on number of panels. Seems like this change would increase cost and complexity, and we know that Tesla really likes to makes things easier for the most part.

 

[h2ofun]

I was told by a friend that works at Tesla they are going to be rolling out an all-in-one Inverter/Gateway of some sort and do away with the current Gateway for simpler cleaner installs with PWs. I have no idea exactly what this means so take it with a grain of salt but that is definitely the plan for the near future.

If true, glad I got what I have.

 

[MP3Mike]

That actually doesn't make much sense to me, because then Tesla is integrating a (solar) inverter and/or Gateway functionality in EVERY Powerwall, instead of just needing one Gateway per 10 Powerwalls (or whatever it is now), plus one or two inverters depending on number of panels.

Nobody said that. The Inverter/Gateway will still be a separate box from the Powerwall. But maybe instead of a 1:10 ratio it will be a 1:5 ratio. (Or you can have an unlimited number of Powerwalls but they only increase run time as power output would be limited by the number/size of Inverter/gateways.)

 

[lavalamp425]

Nobody said that. The Inverter/Gateway will still be a separate box from the Powerwall. But maybe instead of a 1:10 ratio it will be a 1:5 ratio. (Or you can have an unlimited number of Powerwalls but they only increase run time as power output would be limited by the number/size of Inverter/gateways.)

Ah, I misread that. Apologies. Integrating the inverter and Gateway does make some sense, especially in a world where Tesla is only selling solar+Powerwalls together. It would create some issues in larger installs where you need multiple inverters, but my guess is those installs are a small minority.

 

[aesculus]

what version are your PW's

Powerwall 2 - AC