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Extended outage intervention

zƬesla

Member
Apr 16, 2020
315
95
US-NH
In the case of PV+PW installation, when an extended outage occurs, would/should you manually intervene to keep PWs from draining completely, and if so, how (e.,g TEG web, turn off PW switch, breaker)?

In other words, will the TEG/PWs handle it well when, let's say in winter, there's little PV production (up north) and batteries keep repeatedly draining? Or am I better off shutting the PWs off when getting low (e.g., afternoon/evening) then turning back on when sun is out again?
 

jboy210

Supporting Member
Dec 2, 2016
4,640
2,889
Northern California
As I understand it there is an unusable reserve built into the Powerwalls to ensure they do not harm themselves by going offline for a period of time. However, you may have an issue bringing the Tesla Energy Gateway online if the system goes for an extended period with no power. They have a jump start port that uses 12V DC to bring the system back online in this case. In a thread, someone mentioned using this jump start port and it worked as expected to bring everything back online.
 

zƬesla

Member
Apr 16, 2020
315
95
US-NH
@jboy210 – I saw that earlier, and am wondering whether some manual intervention can help prevent the need to jumpstart the system. Would it be better to let the batteries get to the point where the jumpstart is needed, or would some manual intervention help preserve them long term?
 

BrettS

Active Member
Mar 28, 2017
2,108
2,511
Orlando, FL
If the powerwall battery gets too low and there is no solar it will go into kind of a hibernation state to preserve what little battery charge it has left. The next day it will wake up for 6 minutes every hour, starting at 8AM to see if there is solar power. If it finds solar power then it will stay on and charge. If it does not find solar power then it will go back to sleep and try again the next hour (kind of like a ground hog looking for it’s shadow).

I would say that under normal circumstances you just want to let it do it’s thing so it can wake up and find solar power the next day. If for some reason you know that there won’t be solar power all day or for a few days, then it might make sense to turn off the powerwalls. However, once the system has been manually turned off then I believe that it will need to be jumpstarted to start up again (unless the utility power comes back).

It’s also worth noting that it has no control over the loads in your house, so when it does wake up for the 6 minutes an hour looking for solar power then it will be providing power to your house at that time. You may want to go through the house and turn off what you can so that you aren’t putting too much of a load on the powerwall as it searches for power and begins charging again, even turning off as much as possible after the power has gone out, so it will already be off when the powerwall tries to restart.
 

cridinger82

Member
Aug 5, 2020
64
31
Hollywood, Florida
That is where it would be cool, and i haven't had enough time to look into this where one of those smart panels could start shedding loads based on the SOC of the power walls. At the moment the one panel i looked at for just giggles was the lumin one that just released. But it will not tie in with the power walls directly therefore cannot control loads based on SOC or state of discharge to minimize over current. However if you could somehow tie in smart things with the custom written code for the power walls it could shed loads for you if they are connected to smart plugs, etc... This is what i've been trying to look into... my 2 power walls and 11.34 kw system gets installed in 10 days. My whole house currently runs with Smart Things and a mix of HUE...
 

BrettS

Active Member
Mar 28, 2017
2,108
2,511
Orlando, FL
That is where it would be cool, and i haven't had enough time to look into this where one of those smart panels could start shedding loads based on the SOC of the power walls.

It’s an interesting idea, but it gets complicated very fast. For example, the logic really needs to be based on more than just the powerwall SOC. For example, I could have it configured to shut off my air conditioner if the SOC goes under 20%. But if that happens at 10PM because I didn’t get enough solar power to fully charge my powerwalls then it’s going to be too late and the powerwalls won’t make it through the night anyway. On the other hand, if the powerwalls hit 20% at 6AM, then the AC doesn’t need to be turned off because the sun is going to come up in an hour and the powerwalls will have no problem supporting my AC for that last hour with 20% of their power remaining. At the minimum you would need to look at the SOC, the time of day, and if you wanted to get really fancy, maybe even the amount of solar power received that day and the amount of solar power you expect to receive the next day.

There are still some things that can be done with an automation system that’s getting outage data from the powerwalls. For example you could say that whenever the power fails then turn off the pool pump and raise the thermostat by 2 degrees so the AC isn’t using as much power.

But even with that sort of logic the length of the outage (if known) can affect these decisions. If my power is out because of a hurricane then I know that it’s likely going to be out for multiple days and I would want my system to react so that it can conserve power. But if the power is out for another reason and I can see that my utility is predicting that it will only be out for 3 hours then I probably wouldn’t want to make many or any changes to reduce my power consumption because I know my powerwalls will have no problems getting through that short outage.

There’s a great plugin for HomeSeer that was written by @gpez that allows the HomeSeer system to see the a lot of info from the powerwall, including the grid connection state, the powerwall SOC, as well as a prediction of the amount of powerwall runtime remaining based on a rolling average of power demand over the last X minutes.

I’ve spent some time thinking about it, but so far I haven’t really configured any events to respond to power outages yet just because it tends to get complicated very quickly. While there might be cases when I could want the system to shut down my AC if my powerwalls won’t make it until sunrise I also need to factor in the fact that here in Florida it starts to get pretty miserable pretty quickly if the AC is shut off. In a more northern climate it might be easier to let the system shut off the AC when the power fails, however, the flip side of that is that in a more northern climate the AC might not be drawing that much power anyway, so shutting it off wouldn’t really make much of a difference.

Another factor for me is that I bought 4 powerwalls so that I could continue to run my house pretty close to normally even during an extended outage. For someone with only 1 or 2 powerwalls then it might be more critical to shed loads to try to maximize the power that they do have.
 

cridinger82

Member
Aug 5, 2020
64
31
Hollywood, Florida
ya i'm in florida and the first thing i would probably do in a power outage would to be turning off my hot water heater. Also any non essential outlets for tvs in rooms we don't use that stay in hibernation mode, pool pumps... my robo rock cleaners charging stations... Just in "smart devices" i get a constant house draw of about 1.2 kw with nothing else running. Smart things has a custom written plugin that sees and interacts with the powerwalls. So shedding draw for the 2 power walls is good so that we can keep that AC rolling... We have a not even 2 year old home that is just under 2k sq feet. Everything is very efficient and even on a bad day AC on all day, dryers going and oven on we don't pull over 58kw. In a long outage we have an inverter style window ac for the master bedroom for the night times, and would use propane for the grills so we don't use the oven or microwave... Run the AC during the day when we make the most power from our pv system. The AC is only a 3 ton and very efficient for a single stage unit. But shedding loads where you can, can make all the difference. Really like the lumin smart panel but it just isn't there yet as far as features for 2k for just a panel. =(
 

jboy210

Supporting Member
Dec 2, 2016
4,640
2,889
Northern California
That is where it would be cool, and i haven't had enough time to look into this where one of those smart panels could start shedding loads based on the SOC of the power walls. At the moment the one panel i looked at for just giggles was the lumin one that just released. But it will not tie in with the power walls directly therefore cannot control loads based on SOC or state of discharge to minimize over current. However if you could somehow tie in smart things with the custom written code for the power walls it could shed loads for you if they are connected to smart plugs, etc... This is what i've been trying to look into... my 2 power walls and 11.34 kw system gets installed in 10 days. My whole house currently runs with Smart Things and a mix of HUE...

Most pluggable items don't use that much power. It would be best to tie this into big load items, A/C units, pool pumps, hot water heaters, etc. For A/C, if the thermostat had a programmable API an application could monitor the PowerWall and when a failure is detected do things like turn up the trigger temp on the thermostat.

The local utility has/had a program to do something with A/C units during peak demand periods. But that implementation is rather blunt. More like rolling A/C shutdowns.
 

BrettS

Active Member
Mar 28, 2017
2,108
2,511
Orlando, FL
ya i'm in florida and the first thing i would probably do in a power outage would to be turning off my hot water heater.

Yeah, turning off the water could be a good one. I have a tankless water heater, so it won’t draw any power unless I’m actually using hot water. But a regular tank water heater could just randomly draw a lot of power to recharge.

Also any non essential outlets for tvs in rooms we don't use that stay in hibernation mode, pool pumps... my robo rock cleaners charging stations...

I question how much you would gain here. If you’re adding smart switches or smart outlets to control these devices then I’m not sure the smart switches will draw too much less power than the device itself would in sleep mode.

Maybe if you could use a lumin panel to turn off entire circuits there might be some benefit there. But certainly in my case my circuits cover multiple rooms and sometimes both lights and outlets, so I’m not sure there are any circuits I could turn off that wouldn’t also disconnect something that I would want to leave on.

Just in "smart devices" i get a constant house draw of about 1.2 kw with nothing else running.

That sounds crazy high to me. I have a ton of smart devices as well... 6 amazon echo devices, cameras with a DVR, more than 50 zwave switches and devices, etc and my house only draws about .6kW with nothing else running. And half of that is from my large aquarium. If I was to shut down the pumps and such on the aquarium I would be down to about .3kW for my smart devices, including the PC that runs HomeSeer and my DVR. You might want to spend some time trying to figure out what’s drawing that much power.
 

gpez

Member
Apr 25, 2019
610
486
USA
Thanks for the kind words about the Homeseer plugin, @BrettS ! Glad its working well for you.

I've done some limited integration myself with smart devices but have been meaning to do more. If the power goes out at night for example my home automation turns off the outdoor landscaping lights. My home's base load is about 0.8kw - 1.0kw due to a ton of always on devices / vampire drain devices like my NVR, IP cameras, Xboxes, PC, and home automation server.

One of the long term things I want to do is integrate with solar irradiance forecasts (solcast.com as an example) and better predict how long Powerwalls will run for with the anticipated PV production. To be really good at that you'd need an accurate estimate of consumption as well, which changes and is seasonal.

And of course the power doesn't go out here enough for me to justify spending the time to do all of that work... :)
 

cridinger82

Member
Aug 5, 2020
64
31
Hollywood, Florida
We do have an always running plex server with a 10tb raid enclosure running, along with my wife's home office pc, office phone, etc. I also have an entire structured panel that is dedicated to my ubiquiti switches, and routers. we have quite a few poe cameras etc. I imagine my home server and raid enclosure have to pulling a few hundred watts at idle by themselves... The draw in my house does still seem to be somewhat high...
 

MJ_CA_2019

Member
Aug 19, 2020
84
17
Central CA
That sounds crazy high to me. I have a ton of smart devices as well... 6 amazon echo devices, cameras with a DVR, more than 50 zwave switches and devices, etc and my house only draws about .6kW with nothing else running. And half of that is from my large aquarium. If I was to shut down the pumps and such on the aquarium I would be down to about .3kW for my smart devices, including the PC that runs HomeSeer and my DVR. You might want to spend some time trying to figure out what’s drawing that much power.

I'm currently drawing 1.1 kW and that seems to be really close to my floor of load.

Things "always on:
Large fridge / freezer in the kitchen
2nd full size fridge / freezer in the garage
Chest freezer in the garage
Medium sized Air Purifier
My home office: 3 monitors, 2 laptops, 1 Desktop PC
Network Equipment: Router, Switch, IoT devices

I walked around the house and made sure that all lights were off, only 3 ceiling fans running.

Once my pool pump turns on I'll be over 3 kW and then add in the ACs as needed.
We have gas oven / stove, gas heat, gas water heater, gas dryer.

As it is, my 12.6 kW (DC) system with 3 PW doesn't seem oversized at all. If fact, I wish I had pushed for more even though the projections my installer made said we'd offset 106% of usage. (This was a new to us house and we didn't have actuals to estimate off.)
Not sure what I'll do when we decide to add an EV or remove Gas power appliances.
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
7,197
7,980
Riverside Co. CA
That sounds crazy high to me. I have a ton of smart devices as well... 6 amazon echo devices, cameras with a DVR, more than 50 zwave switches and devices, etc and my house only draws about .6kW with nothing else running. And half of that is from my large aquarium. If I was to shut down the pumps and such on the aquarium I would be down to about .3kW for my smart devices, including the PC that runs HomeSeer and my DVR. You might want to spend some time trying to figure out what’s drawing that much power.

My home draw in the middle of the night when no one is up is between .5kWh to .7kWh. I have 2 fridges (one in kitchen, one in garage), and a Synolog NAS device with 70 ish TBs of storage I leave on, and my router, a couple of access points, a couple of unmanaged switches, etc.
 

getakey

Member
Jan 28, 2020
985
307
95762
Mine is about 1kWh. 2 Fridges (kitchen/garage) wine fridge (about the size of 2 fridges, but set at ~50 degrees). Outside lights, but they are LED. Computers are usually in standby. Mesh network and modem on. Probably a few other things, but fridges are the big draw
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
5,989
5,567
Los Altos, CA
In the case of PV+PW installation, when an extended outage occurs, would/should you manually intervene to keep PWs from draining completely, and if so, how (e.,g TEG web, turn off PW switch, breaker)?

In other words, will the TEG/PWs handle it well when, let's say in winter, there's little PV production (up north) and batteries keep repeatedly draining? Or am I better off shutting the PWs off when getting low (e.g., afternoon/evening) then turning back on when sun is out again?
If you're willing to do manual intervention, it's far better to turn off loads at the breaker panel than to prematurely shut down the Powerwalls. If I shut down my server and desktop computers and prevent people from turning on the Plasma TV, I can keep the overnight load to about 300W instead of about 650W. LED lighting and refrigeration doesn't take that much energy. In a dire situation, I can also pull about 500W from my EV's 12V system to keep the system from shutting down overnight.
Powerwall 2.0 Backup Runtime Extender
 
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Reactions: jjrandorin

cridinger82

Member
Aug 5, 2020
64
31
Hollywood, Florida
i'm telling you... always on devices when added up drain more then we all think. each may only be a few watts to a hundred watts. Computers at idle can draw low but servers or Plex servers, etc can run in a not idle state all the time which would pull a constant 100+ watts or even more.. plus all of the poe cameras and switches really add up.
 

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