Extreme cold weather in Canada's North

[abasile]

They should design electric vehicles so they have the capability to at least run the battery down and keep themselves warm for at least a couple of days during extreme temperatures.

I thought the Model S already did this. Other than apparently voiding the warranty (!), I'm not aware how being out in extreme cold for a day or two could be a problem as long as the battery has enough charge to run its heater. Perhaps Tesla is being cautious so as to avoid fully discharged, frozen batteries.

The Nissan LEAF (except the very earliest ones shipped, like mine) has a battery heater to prevent the battery from freezing at -20C. As long as there's enough charge in the battery, it'll keep itself from freezing. I'm not aware of any warranty restrictions on using the LEAF in frigid climates, and I've seen reports like this one of LEAFs being used in the Arctic. More range would be nice, though...

 

[Evbwcaer]

Does anyone have details/links on the -30c/-22f warranty? We see those temps in Minneapolis usually a couple times per winter and those temps are common in the northern part of the state. I could not find the actual written warranty portion dealing with this. Thanks

 

[AudubonB]

You know, Realistic - and you probably DO know - the description you provide of how you treat an ICE is real engine abuse. IF there were a way for an auto company to track same, they long ago would have in their warranty a way to void it for such behaviour, and, as an example, if I were looking for a used car, I would run, not walk, from anything you owned.

Sure - you can - if it is a gasoline, not a diesel, engine - turn it over and run it at -25 or -30 or -45 without having it pre-warmed, but even having the crankcase filled with 0W40, you are cranking those pistons up and down the cylinder walls with ZERO lubrication, as all the oil has turned to sludge and is at the bottom of the pan. You're scoring the cylinder walls, you're destroying your rings, every time. If a diesel engine, then the situation is even worse.

But you know that. THIS part of your argument is worse than specious - it is dastardly. The rest of it does possess merit, but your overall argument is badly corrupted by this portion of your self-revelatory statement.

 

[jkirkebo]

There might be a lot of electric cars in Norway, but Norway does not really have extreme temperatures. Most of Norway is actually by the coast relatively speaking, this gives rise to actually moderate temperatures. It may be up north, but it's far from being an extremely cold place.

I'll have to disagree with you on this, we have lots of inland climate in Norway. Some parts go as low as -45C or so every winter, even as far south as Røros or thereabouts. My stepdaughter lived in Drevsjø one year, -40C or colder is a regular occurence there. Diesel cars won't start without block heaters.

I had no problems last winter leaving my TMS outside my cabin for a few days in -20 to -25 degrees. The cabin unfortunately has no 230V service, only 12V solar so it was not plugged in.

 

[Realistic EV Fan]

You know, Realistic - and you probably DO know - the description you provide of how you treat an ICE is real engine abuse. IF there were a way for an auto company to track same, they long ago would have in their warranty a way to void it for such behaviour, and, as an example, if I were looking for a used car, I would run, not walk, from anything you owned.

Sure - you can - if it is a gasoline, not a diesel, engine - turn it over and run it at -25 or -30 or -45 without having it pre-warmed, but even having the crankcase filled with 0W40, you are cranking those pistons up and down the cylinder walls with ZERO lubrication, as all the oil has turned to sludge and is at the bottom of the pan. You're scoring the cylinder walls, you're destroying your rings, every time. If a diesel engine, then the situation is even worse.

But you know that. THIS part of your argument is worse than specious - it is dastardly. The rest of it does possess merit, but your overall argument is badly corrupted by this portion of your self-revelatory statement.

The reality is I do not do -45°C he starts I can avoid it. But I have done it on multiple occasions due to breaker tripping probably from snow might have got into the plug and melted. And you know what I did 500,000 km on it and the compression and everything was good and the reason I sold it were for very different reasons than because the engine was trashed. Ironically I sold it to a mechanic that checked it out. Modern engines are made of incredibly strong materials and by the way I was using 5W 30 oil but synthetic. I know people who have started diesels without plugging in the block heater in the temperature and you know what they lasted over half 500,000 km as well. Argument is valid.

 

[mknox]

Another thing to expect (besides the charging / range issues discussed already) is that the steering will get much stiffer below about -25C, at least until the car warms up.

I'd forgotten about that, but this is absolutely correct. The first time I experienced it in the cold happened after I turned off the freeway and noticed it was really stiff. I guess the extreme cold with no ICE up front to keep things warm is the culprit.

 

[taraquin]

There are limits, at a certain point things actually freeze and cause other issues. As a result there's the problem of too cold, such that Tesla feels it appropriate to void the warranty if you leave the car out below -30c. That makes me worry buying one in Calgary, it would flat out rule it out in northern Canada unless I was certain I'd never park it other than in a heated garage.

Sorry, forgot to say that the ideal low temp i 0-5 C, slightly above freezing.

 

[jerry33]

There are limits, at a certain point things actually freeze and cause other issues. As a result there's the problem of too cold, such that Tesla feels it appropriate to void the warranty if you leave the car out below -30c. That makes me worry buying one in Calgary, it would flat out rule it out in northern Canada unless I was certain I'd never park it other than in a heated garage.

It's leaving it in those temperatures for more than 24 hours that's the problem. (I still don't know if that means unplugged or not). Having been to Calgary many times in winter (as well as Edmonton, Grande Prairie, Grimshaw etc.) I'd say that Calgary won't be much of a problem as it's very rare for Calgary to stay at -30 for 24 hours (and that's a real -30, not windchill -30 which seems to me to be mostly so that people can have bragging rights

 

[Paul8810]

@Realistic EV Fan -

Although I currently take my Model S south in the winter, as a fellow Edmontonian and Tesla owner I do plan to keep my Model X in Edmonton in the winters and have no concerns whatsoever doing so. Admittedly I'm meticulous with my cars but I would never purposely leave any vehicle - even an ICE - more than a few hours outside without plugging it in on the days we go below -25C, so really there is no change in practice for me.

The Tesla will indeed use it's own power to keep itself warm if not plugged in. If you have to leave it for long periods of time (ie: several days while you leave it at the airport), you will need at least a 120V outlet to keep your battery from completely draining itself. Fortunately, we have 120V outlets in most parking lots here; even if the outlets are shared or are rotating 15 minute intervals, this should be sufficient. Common sense prevails here, since I wouldn't park my Tesla at the airport in the middle of February for 3 weeks when the initial state of charge was less than 20%, even if it was plugged in. While that might be fine, I wouldn't do it. Realistically I wouldn't even park my ICE at the airport for 3 weeks in February either, as chances are the 12V would be dead when I got back. I'd probably just opt to take a cab and leave my car in the garage. If you are concerned about a faulty outlet, remember you can periodically check the charge state of your vehicle on your phone - or even run the VisibleTesla on your computer and have it notify you by email or text when charge state is disconnected or when the battery is lower than a certain %.

In any event, even if we do get a few days in a row below minus 30C, I'm very doubtful Tesla will just say "to bad for you, your warranty is void". But they do need to protect themselves from abuse - those that will leave their vehicles with little or no charge unplugged for days on end with temperatures below -30C.

If you haven’t driven a Tesla, I encourage you to do so. Your concerns will be no more. If you are serious about buying and can't get out to Tesla store in Vancouver, PM me I'll see what I can do. It's the most fantastic car I've ever owned, and what little service I have had it has been nothing short of exceptional. I’m confident Tesla is behind me no matter what temperature it is outside.

 

[Realistic EV Fan]

I'll have to disagree with you on this, we have lots of inland climate in Norway. Some parts go as low as -45C or so every winter, even as far south as Røros or thereabouts. My stepdaughter lived in Drevsjø one year, -40C or colder is a regular occurence there. Diesel cars won't start without block heaters.

I had no problems last winter leaving my TMS outside my cabin for a few days in -20 to -25 degrees. The cabin unfortunately has no 230V service, only 12V solar so it was not plugged in.

I'm not doubting that maybe you even get these temperatures, but you do not get them very often. Realistically with so many Tesla cars in Norway one would think that it would be easier to find out how they perform in these temperatures if in fact people drove in that weather. But I've watched a few videos from Norway and realistically -15°C seems to be cold for most of Norway. There's a big discrepancy in how the car performs in -15°C versus -40°C from my experience. It's something I'm trying to find out, and it's not easy because very few people drove it in this weather. Of course the biggest factor in performance is range and whether the car keeps the occupants warm as well as how quickly could warms up. I can tell you diesels don't do very well in this weather, they have an extremely hard time keeping the occupants warm and realistically in city driving they do not.

- - - Updated - - -

@Realistic EV Fan -

Although I currently take my Model S south in the winter, as a fellow Edmontonian and Tesla owner I do plan to keep my Model X in Edmonton in the winters and have no concerns whatsoever doing so. Admittedly I'm meticulous with my cars but I would never purposely leave any vehicle - even an ICE - more than a few hours outside without plugging it in on the days we go below -25C, so really there is no change in practice for me.

The Tesla will indeed use it's own power to keep itself warm if not plugged in. If you have to leave it for long periods of time (ie: several days while you leave it at the airport), you will need at least a 120V outlet to keep your battery from completely draining itself. Fortunately, we have 120V outlets in most parking lots here; even if the outlets are shared or are rotating 15 minute intervals, this should be sufficient. Common sense prevails here, since I wouldn't park my Tesla at the airport in the middle of February for 3 weeks when the initial state of charge was less than 20%, even if it was plugged in. While that might be fine, I wouldn't do it. Realistically I wouldn't even park my ICE at the airport for 3 weeks in February either, as chances are the 12V would be dead when I got back. I'd probably just opt to take a cab and leave my car in the garage. If you are concerned about a faulty outlet, remember you can periodically check the charge state of your vehicle on your phone - or even run the VisibleTesla on your computer and have it notify you by email or text when charge state is disconnected or when the battery is lower than a certain %.

In any event, even if we do get a few days in a row below minus 30C, I'm very doubtful Tesla will just say "to bad for you, your warranty is void". But they do need to protect themselves from abuse - those that will leave their vehicles with little or no charge unplugged for days on end with temperatures below -30C.

If you haven’t driven a Tesla, I encourage you to do so. Your concerns will be no more. If you are serious about buying and can't get out to Tesla store in Vancouver, PM me I'll see what I can do. It's the most fantastic car I've ever owned, and what little service I have had it has been nothing short of exceptional. I’m confident Tesla is behind me no matter what temperature it is outside.

I'm very curious how the model X will do in the winter. It's understandable that the car is left plugged in at all opportunities. But I'm not sure that the cars charging system can handle power cycling for 15 minutes on in 15 minutes off even though I don't really see myself using such a system. My question is whether it can handle extreme cold temperatures for long durations in an unheated space when it is plugged in? At least 24 hours on a 120 V socket and indefinitely on the 240 V socket. Of course it has to be able to handle this temperature for 24 hours just because unintended accidents happen and the car can be left without power in such temperatures.

I'm very curious how you are able to use the car outside the city. Having a charging system at home makes it very easy to use it locally. But what I am curious have you ever tried going with it down south by just driving it. We don't really have superchargers yet so I'm wondering where you get the power if you want to go to Calgary, Banff or even Jasper?

 

[Doug_G]

I've had my Model S cold soak below -30C, and it didn't have any problems. If you don't preheat while plugged in then it guzzles power when you first start up (pack heater, cabin heater). Also when the battery is really cold you'll have less range initially, but that improves as it warms up.

I don't think it's a big problem, unless you want to leave it sitting for an extended period. That said, in extreme cold I would recommend keeping the car plugged into 240V whenever possible (120V can't charge the car at those temperatures).

 

[Jeeps17]

Also when the battery is really cold you'll have less range initially, but that improves as it warms up.

I have not had a chance to try it yet, but one of the recent FW updates apparently displays the hidden range in a cold-soaked battery as a blue bar extending the usual green SOC bar below the speedometer.

 

[Paul8810]

I'm very curious how you are able to use the car outside the city. Having a charging system at home makes it very easy to use it locally. But what I am curious have you ever tried going with it down south by just driving it. We don't really have superchargers yet so I'm wondering where you get the power if you want to go to Calgary, Banff or even Jasper?

I drove from Phoenix to Vancouver using superchargers, then Vancouver to Edmonton via Banff using sun country highway chargers. Several owners have done the same, see Vancouver to Alberta Trip Planning. Jasper is still somewhat of an issue due to lack of chargers, but time will fix that.