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Extremely Confused After Watching - Who Killed The Electric Car
- Thread starter ggies07
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- Electric Vehicles
Somewhat OT, but... IMO if GM had designed the Volt to look like a 4-door Cadillac ELR, they would have flown off the lots. Hyundai redesigned the Sonata (and Kia the Optima) and lit up their sales' numbers like never before. GM missed the mark and opportunity.
No, they wouldn't have. GM would have artificially limited production and we'd have the same crushing situation.
Yes, I'm a bit jaded about GM on this topic.
Elon's repeated commentary is very effective in my opinion, and has stuck with me.
People held a candlelight vigil for a car, a GM car. What more of a message do you need to change your plans? How can it be about anything but money (or your perception of how to continue to gather it) when you "don't let that influence you"? Anyway, going somewhat OT and emo. Mea culpa.
DuncanWatson
Member
I love the EV1, if I had been clued in 1998 I would have gotten one. The car was the future and it is a crime that they were crushed. If they would have rereleased that car with Lithium Ion batteries in 2007 I would have jumped on it immediately. It is nuts what happened with EVs in the early naughties. It makes me violently upset.
Do not let 'perfect' be the enemy of 'good'!
The Volt is a wonderful car which does more to cut this nations gas usage than most any other car out there.
No, it isn't a Tesla, but it is a d@%#ed good step in the right direction.
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
I certainly agree that GM made some big mistakes. Heck, even GM agrees that they made some big mistakes. Crushing the cars, especially after promising they wouldn't, was a huge mistake. Throwing away all the engineering information (which is why none of the EV-1 tech is in the Volt or Spark) and not keeping up with research in the area was a huge mistake. Although it is worth noting that almost none of the people involved in those decisions work there anymore. Heck, it's technically a completely different company now.
But I think the Volt was an excellent move. It has the highest owner satisfaction ratings of any car. While I prefer the simplicity and packaging of BEVs, that's only because I can afford a Tesla. If I couldn't, one of our cars would be a Volt. I know a lot of single-car families that couldn't possibly do most of their driving in electric mode without owning a Volt. It fills a lot of market need that BEVs can't yet, and it still has an engine so their dealers shouldn't have minded selling it (though it turns out they did because of all the FUD aimed specifically at the Volt; even the dealers didn't understand the car), and it could be released early without worry about driver education or infrastructure issues because of the gas backup, etc. But despite the gas backup, it really drives like an EV most of the time, unlike most of the other PHEVs out there.
GM still has some marketing issues and is still mostly using it as a halo car (though they really are working to keep up the sales numbers; I don't think they have done or will do any production limiting - it's just getting harder as more PHEVs come to market, plus the Model S). The Volt alone doesn't solve all of our problems, and long-term I think the future is BEVs. But for right now we absolutely need cars like the Volt as part of the market mix, and I think GM did a great job on it.
But I think the Volt was an excellent move. It has the highest owner satisfaction ratings of any car. While I prefer the simplicity and packaging of BEVs, that's only because I can afford a Tesla. If I couldn't, one of our cars would be a Volt. I know a lot of single-car families that couldn't possibly do most of their driving in electric mode without owning a Volt. It fills a lot of market need that BEVs can't yet, and it still has an engine so their dealers shouldn't have minded selling it (though it turns out they did because of all the FUD aimed specifically at the Volt; even the dealers didn't understand the car), and it could be released early without worry about driver education or infrastructure issues because of the gas backup, etc. But despite the gas backup, it really drives like an EV most of the time, unlike most of the other PHEVs out there.
GM still has some marketing issues and is still mostly using it as a halo car (though they really are working to keep up the sales numbers; I don't think they have done or will do any production limiting - it's just getting harder as more PHEVs come to market, plus the Model S). The Volt alone doesn't solve all of our problems, and long-term I think the future is BEVs. But for right now we absolutely need cars like the Volt as part of the market mix, and I think GM did a great job on it.
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DuncanWatson
Member
The thing is that for me the EV1 shows the Volt doesn't have a place in my home. I don't need a car with more than a ~200 mile range and some L3 charging. The Volt could have been EV2 and had exactly that if GM hadn't been so fscking stupid, shortsighted and evil.
My Ford Focus Electric is a great car and has all the bells and whistles of today's tech. But the range is ~80 miles and it isn't a BEV from the ground up. Instead it could have been so much more and I regret the lost oppertunity due to corporate douchery. The Volt is fine for those who need it. It is worlds better than a hybrid Escape or something similar. But it is BS technology designed specifically to interfere with regulartory action trying to moderate climate change.
It is really hard to forgive evil, straight up. What else do you call it?
My Ford Focus Electric is a great car and has all the bells and whistles of today's tech. But the range is ~80 miles and it isn't a BEV from the ground up. Instead it could have been so much more and I regret the lost oppertunity due to corporate douchery. The Volt is fine for those who need it. It is worlds better than a hybrid Escape or something similar. But it is BS technology designed specifically to interfere with regulartory action trying to moderate climate change.
It is really hard to forgive evil, straight up. What else do you call it?
Vger
Active Member
In the above and other comments earlier, you are certainly validating Tesla's point about the non-viability of the dealer model for new tech BEV's. I think we all need to stay focused on supporting Tesla to stay direct.
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
Agreed, Vger. If it wasn't for "the dealer problem" - which I consider to be the primary obstacle to BEV adoption - things could be very different now. The automakers can build great EVs, and owners love them; but the dealers have always been the issue - not because they have a secret plan, but simply because it's less work for more reward when they sell a gas car. So making lots of BEVs (and putting in the investment to make them cheaply and in quantity) doesn't make sense to most manufacturers when their only legal channel won't push them.
Rather than ZEV laws, what I'd really like to see is an exemption from the dealer rules for any automaker that builds an EV - maybe they still have to sell gas cars through their dealer network, but they can sell EVs direct. With that change I think we would see an EV-2 worthy of the name, and available everywhere. Even if GM didn't jump on the chance, I am sure other automakers would. (Though not all right away simply because building a new channel is expensive. But once they see it done successfully, they will love the chance to cut out the middleman).
There are other possible workarounds. For example, the automaker could put a larger spiff on EVs than they do on gas cars. Part of the reason they've avoided this is they didn't think they could afford to, because they assumed everybody shopping for an EV would only want the cheapest possible econobox - they really didn't see the advantages to electric drive (and of course, the reason they didn't stop to consider it is because they already dismissed the cars because of "the dealer problem". Many problems seem unsolvable until you actually spend some time trying to solve them. That is what makes Tesla different). The dealers haven't been the only problem; the automakers misunderstanding the market have contributed as well. They could afford this with the right type of car.
Another fix is lowering the price so far that people demand the cars no matter whether the dealers want to sell them or not. This seems to be largely what is happening with the <100-mile BEV market right now. The question is whether the automakers assume that demand is permanent, or just a built-up surge. If they former, they can justify investments to make more cars.
Rather than ZEV laws, what I'd really like to see is an exemption from the dealer rules for any automaker that builds an EV - maybe they still have to sell gas cars through their dealer network, but they can sell EVs direct. With that change I think we would see an EV-2 worthy of the name, and available everywhere. Even if GM didn't jump on the chance, I am sure other automakers would. (Though not all right away simply because building a new channel is expensive. But once they see it done successfully, they will love the chance to cut out the middleman).
There are other possible workarounds. For example, the automaker could put a larger spiff on EVs than they do on gas cars. Part of the reason they've avoided this is they didn't think they could afford to, because they assumed everybody shopping for an EV would only want the cheapest possible econobox - they really didn't see the advantages to electric drive (and of course, the reason they didn't stop to consider it is because they already dismissed the cars because of "the dealer problem". Many problems seem unsolvable until you actually spend some time trying to solve them. That is what makes Tesla different). The dealers haven't been the only problem; the automakers misunderstanding the market have contributed as well. They could afford this with the right type of car.
Another fix is lowering the price so far that people demand the cars no matter whether the dealers want to sell them or not. This seems to be largely what is happening with the <100-mile BEV market right now. The question is whether the automakers assume that demand is permanent, or just a built-up surge. If they former, they can justify investments to make more cars.
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But that's the thing, just like DuncanWatson said, it is a waste in today's world. The EV1 had 100 mile range, most of the others today can't even reach that.......it's just a shame what happened and so when I look at their "progress" I see laziness and holding back. So after being educated on the whole situation, I can't look at it as being a great step forward.
Wow, according to this the EV1 got 160 mile of range with its generation 3 battery pack! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1#Battery
The other specs look very inviting for a not-too-expensive 1999 car as well.
Anyways, this is all exactly why Elon concluded that only a startup could produce a viable electric car. He has been proven right...
The other specs look very inviting for a not-too-expensive 1999 car as well.
Anyways, this is all exactly why Elon concluded that only a startup could produce a viable electric car. He has been proven right...
Skotty
2014 S P85 | 2023 F-150L
I wouldn't call the Volt a lazy half-hearted attempt. Ford PHEVs are a much better example of lazy half-hearted. In general, I prefer Ford to Chevy, but Ford's PHEVs are just minor extensions of their hybrids, while the Volt is a reasonable attempt to make a battery powered car. Compared to other PHEVs, the Volt goes at least twice as far on battery, isn't based on an ICE car, can drive solely on battery without ICE assistance even at full throttle, and you can find them for sale on dealer lots in all states.
Having an engine thrown in provides Chevy with a solution to long range driving. Whereas Tesla addressed driving range by having a more expensive car in order to have a larger battery with a network of superchargers for longer travel, Chevy uses a gas engine backup while keeping costs lower.
Regardless of what the story behind EV1 is, the Volt in my opinion is an honest attempt to move towards electrification. Only Tesla and Nissan have gone further, but Nissan has no current solution for long range driving, and Tesla is hard to afford. I actually need long range driving for work on a fairly regular basis. I can't afford to buy a Tesla yet; I want one, but it's still a few years off. In the meantime, I'm happy to be driving a Volt, and I find it far more compelling than all the other PHEVs out there in terms of electrification.
Having an engine thrown in provides Chevy with a solution to long range driving. Whereas Tesla addressed driving range by having a more expensive car in order to have a larger battery with a network of superchargers for longer travel, Chevy uses a gas engine backup while keeping costs lower.
Regardless of what the story behind EV1 is, the Volt in my opinion is an honest attempt to move towards electrification. Only Tesla and Nissan have gone further, but Nissan has no current solution for long range driving, and Tesla is hard to afford. I actually need long range driving for work on a fairly regular basis. I can't afford to buy a Tesla yet; I want one, but it's still a few years off. In the meantime, I'm happy to be driving a Volt, and I find it far more compelling than all the other PHEVs out there in terms of electrification.
I'm truly glad it works for you, but I cant get past it. GM made an EV and then a decade and a half later made HALF of an EV, there's no way you can look at that and say its forward progress. And now they are freaking teaming up with Honda to focus on fuel cell cars for 2020. Its BS. I'd like them to grow some balls and try and make an EV for the masses because Tesla is going beat the sh*t out of them.
Please buy it to support Plug in America. http://action.pluginamerica.org/shop/shop.jsp?storefront_KEY=553
PIA does a lot of work that benefits all of us EV owners. Who do you think works behind the scenes to get the tax breaks we get? They write documents for local municipalities to use when wording laws protecting EV parking. The design standard signage and serve as experts for car companies getting into the EV market. Elon references WKTEC all the time about owners holding a vigil for a car.
You mean a mainstream EV like this which can be had for under $20k after tax credits?
2014 Chevy Spark EV | Electric Vehicle | Chevrolet
Hahaha, true, but it's in selective states right now, correct? Let's see them make it available for every state, anywhere. AND it looks like a typical electric car and not something that looks nice and sleek, like the Model S. Shoot, the Volt has a better body style than the Spark. hahaha. I guess that's the only nice thing I can say about the Volt.
DuncanWatson
Member
I don't mind the look so much, it is a econ-box but eh. I do hate that it isn't available in WA and even in CA it has limited availability.
rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
Nissan has quick charging and have been fairly aggressive with it's rollout. If they were to upgrade the LEAF packs on the next model year to 30 kWh or more, long range driving could start to become feasible in certain regions.
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