F-150 Ford Lightning

[Needsdecaf]

The problem is that none of these Ford executives drives an EV.

If they did they would know that the Electrify America stations are unreliable. The card readers only work half the time and the machines will overheat and just stop working at random times. Same with ChargePoint and EV GO.

1. This is a problem, but overstated.

2. I have driven my Model 3's for a combined 65,000 miles. I would say, that as a two car household, I could easily exist with NEVER having to DC fast charge.

There is a huge market that can be tapped before charging infrastructure is the critical path. Yes, it absolutely will be someday. But right now, imagine every two-vehicle household switching one of their ICE car to an EV. Right now EV market share is less than 2%.

The charging network is not the critical problem yet.

 

[Sklith]

Yeah, but it doesn't just happen with your charger. You need to be wired through an automatic transfer switch for that to happen.

Yep, and I expect most people who go for the extended range Lightning will do this.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

1. This is a problem, but overstated.

2. I have driven my Model 3's for a combined 65,000 miles. I would say, that as a two car household, I could easily exist with NEVER having to DC fast charge.

There is a huge market that can be tapped before charging infrastructure is the critical path. Yes, it absolutely will be someday. But right now, imagine every two-vehicle household switching one of their ICE car to an EV. Right now EV market share is less than 2%.

The charging network is not the critical problem yet.

1- will be a big problem if they don't fix it.
2 - 2 cars and you take the ice for road trips? -..guess you said 'could'

charging infrastructure has been the critical path for Tesla in my 100k+ miles in CA/west coast
Roadster was not a travel car due to this. 2012-13. traveling was a PITA.

 

[Needsdecaf]

1- will be a big problem if they don't fix it.
2 - 2 cars and you take the ice for road trips? -..guess you said 'could'

charging infrastructure has been the critical path for Tesla in my 100k+ miles in CA/west coast
Roadster was not a travel car due to this. 2012-13. traveling was a PITA.

They are fixing it. It's literally getting better every day. There are a lot of people who road trip non-Tesla EV's

Yeah, I take the ICE car for road trips. It's larger inside (more comfort for 4 people over 5'10", hauls more stuff, has 700 miles of highway range, and rides much more comfortably. I miss Active cruise, and possibly the Auto Steer, but I don't miss the "ding ding" of re-engaging autosteer every single time I make a lane change. Over a day and a half that would drive me batty.

I have taken the Model 3 routinely on 400 mile round trips, but I wouldn't subject my kids and wife to that ride for 400 miles, let alone 800 or 1200. Not to mention after about 400 miles the supercharging time starts to seriously eat into trip efficiency.

If charging infrastructure is your critical path, then congrats, you're outside the norm of greater than 50% of the car market. Which means EV's have another 48% to capture before they get to buyers like you.

 

[SO16]

They are fixing it. It's literally getting better every day. There are a lot of people who road trip non-Tesla EV's

Yeah, I take the ICE car for road trips. It's larger inside (more comfort for 4 people over 5'10", hauls more stuff, has 700 miles of highway range, and rides much more comfortably. I miss Active cruise, and possibly the Auto Steer, but I don't miss the "ding ding" of re-engaging autosteer every single time I make a lane change. Over a day and a half that would drive me batty.

I have taken the Model 3 routinely on 400 mile round trips, but I wouldn't subject my kids and wife to that ride for 400 miles, let alone 800 or 1200. Not to mention after about 400 miles the supercharging time starts to seriously eat into trip efficiency.

If charging infrastructure is your critical path, then congrats, you're outside the norm of greater than 50% of the car market. Which means EV's have another 48% to capture before they get to buyers like you.

Just got back from a 2,600 mile road trip in a S90D. Better than any ICE vehicle I’ve taken before. And charging the vast majority of time aligned with when I wanted a break. Makes driving enjoyable again. But if you need 3 large people in the back, that could be a pain.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Yeah, I take the ICE car for road trips. It's larger inside (more comfort for 4 people over 5'10", hauls more stuff, has 700 miles of highway range, and rides much more comfortably. I miss Active cruise, and possibly the Auto Steer, but I don't miss the "ding ding" of re-engaging autosteer every single time I make a lane change. Over a day and a half that would drive me batty.

We did one road trip of 600 miles in a car without Enhanced AP or FSD. It was quite annoying whenever we changed lanes. I think they do that on purpose to try to convince you to upgrade. Unfortunately, it might have the opposite effect and many people will think it's that annoying all the time, so why bother to pay to upgrade.

 

[finman100]

perception.

if people think they can't drive the big road trip, they won't buy an EV. this is the perception issue that the Superchargers eliminate.

Ford Pass sounds good...maybe it will work. too few will want to cross their fingers and 'hope' the chargers work. (the non-Tesla ones). That's reality now for non-Superchargers. Sure, Plugshare reviews and check-ins show lots of successful DC fast charges on EA (or what ever), but too many show unreliable road trip ability.

perception is a tough one for EV adoption. doesn't matter if the fear of charge anxiety is real or not... the car's gotta be able to "do" that regardless if it ever 'does' those kinds of long distance travel.

perception.

 

[strider]

So . . . here in the land of wildfires and preemptive power blackouts, most (if not all) cell tower owners are installing backup generation at cell tower cites to provide continued mobile communication when the "power" goes out.

Makes sense there. Here in the land of spinny wind things, power lines and cell phone towers alike are chewed up like watermelon on the 4th of July. For ice storms, the cell towers tend to do better than the power lines so would be of some benefit there. Still, I would want to be able to walk out to my transfer switch and literally throw a switch (or push a button) and then engage a button in the truck to energize the house.

Still, I love this feature and I hope it will push Tesla to allow it. They already have transfer switches for powerwall installs - should be a no-brainer for them.

 

[strider]

perception.

if people think they can't drive the big road trip, they won't buy an EV. this is the perception issue that the Superchargers eliminate.

Ford Pass sounds good...maybe it will work. too few will want to cross their fingers and 'hope' the chargers work. (the non-Tesla ones). That's reality now for non-Superchargers. Sure, Plugshare reviews and check-ins show lots of successful DC fast charges on EA (or what ever), but too many show unreliable road trip ability.

perception is a tough one for EV adoption. doesn't matter if the fear of charge anxiety is real or not... the car's gotta be able to "do" that regardless if it ever 'does' those kinds of long distance travel.

perception.

But people on this board continually believe that a thing must be perfect or solve every possible corner case before it will be adopted. There is such a thing as an adoption curve. I can't go back as far as the EV-1 but my history w/ Tesla is nearly 11 years. Long before SCs existed. We bought and enjoyed EVs before the SC network. Lots of people did (or Tesla would not exist). Lots and lots of people have more than 1 vehicle. This means that 1 of their vehicles could be an EV without a single DC fast charger in existence. If they do road trip they take the ICE. So there is a sizable market of people for which a 300 mile EPA range is enough to drive to work and tow their boat to the lake on weekends. There are 6 or 7 large lakes within 65 miles of me. 300 mile EPA range could easily tow a boat there and back. Does everyone have so many options close by? No. But plenty do.

I have not used an SC since I drove our MS from the Bay Area to Oklahoma. The only "long" trips we take in a car is to Silver Collar City where we stay in a cabin at the campground and rent an RV spot for the car. Use the 14-50 to charge the car overnight and we are good to go. Would work for folks hauling campers too.

 

[brianman]

Not sure why everyone on EV forum's so obsessed with range. There is a lot to a vehicle than range alone. Driving dynamics, handling, quality of stereo, etc.

Oh how times have changed.

 

[mk677]

Oh how times have changed.

yes they have, as the number of places to charge has increased the need for longer range is lessened.
when I had my first tesla in 2013 there were many times I had to baby the car in order to make it to the next charger, these days there are so many chargers available that on many routes I do not need to pre plan a trip like I had to in the past.

 

[T3SLAROD]

Reservations are up to 70K, not bad, not bad at all.

 

[Needsdecaf]

Just got back from a 2,600 mile road trip in a S90D. Better than any ICE vehicle I’ve taken before. And charging the vast majority of time aligned with when I wanted a break. Makes driving enjoyable again. But if you need 3 large people in the back, that could be a pain.

Ok, let's break this down. Why? Why is it more enjoyable than any other ICE vehicle?

For me, I will take my Tesla over my wife's SUV on a 400 mile round trip from Houston to Dallas and back. Why? Because it has TACC and Auto Steer. Also, the seats are fairly comfortable on a long haul. Finally, on this trip, charging and bio breaks do align well.

There are some caveats, though.

1. Having AP not EAP or FSD means "bong-bong" for every damn lane change. That grates.
2. Ride. The SUV rides better. Bigger vehicle, more sophisticated suspension.
3. Charging time. While not a HUGE deal breaker, it does mean that if I want to get to a morning appointment up there, I have to factor in 25 extra minutes to charge, vs. 5 for a bio / snack break. I can make that work.

But, here's the thing.

TACC isn't exclusive to Tesla. On the contrary, It's fairly ubiquitous, and I believe that there are other manufacturers who do it much better. My last Cayenne loaner was smooooooooth on the ACC compared to the Tesla.

Also, AS is no longer Tesla exclusive. Other cars have it, although I think not quite as good. But it's getting better.

So if I had an ICE car to drive on the highway with good TACC and AS, I'd say that the benefit lies in the better powertrain experience, accelerating around vehicles, etc. But is that a huge benefit? May be to you. May even be to me. But it's doesn't seem life changing.

So again, is it better than any ICE vehicle you've had because you haven't had ACC or lane keeping? Or is it something about the powertrain? Honest question.

As for the range / charging, to me, much over 500 miles and I start to prefer the ICE over the EV. I think once you're past about two charging stops, the time needed for charging starts to add up vs. bio / food breaks. Unless you get really lucky and can chow down at every charging stop. And 220 miles is the max range of a Model 3 Performance on Texas highways.

 

[SO16]

Ok, let's break this down. Why? Why is it more enjoyable than any other ICE vehicle?

For me, I will take my Tesla over my wife's SUV on a 400 mile round trip from Houston to Dallas and back. Why? Because it has TACC and Auto Steer. Also, the seats are fairly comfortable on a long haul. Finally, on this trip, charging and bio breaks do align well.

There are some caveats, though.

1. Having AP not EAP or FSD means "bong-bong" for every damn lane change. That grates.
2. Ride. The SUV rides better. Bigger vehicle, more sophisticated suspension.
3. Charging time. While not a HUGE deal breaker, it does mean that if I want to get to a morning appointment up there, I have to factor in 25 extra minutes to charge, vs. 5 for a bio / snack break. I can make that work.

But, here's the thing.

TACC isn't exclusive to Tesla. On the contrary, It's fairly ubiquitous, and I believe that there are other manufacturers who do it much better. My last Cayenne loaner was smooooooooth on the ACC compared to the Tesla.

Also, AS is no longer Tesla exclusive. Other cars have it, although I think not quite as good. But it's getting better.

So if I had an ICE car to drive on the highway with good TACC and AS, I'd say that the benefit lies in the better powertrain experience, accelerating around vehicles, etc. But is that a huge benefit? May be to you. May even be to me. But it's doesn't seem life changing.

So again, is it better than any ICE vehicle you've had because you haven't had ACC or lane keeping? Or is it something about the powertrain? Honest question.

As for the range / charging, to me, much over 500 miles and I start to prefer the ICE over the EV. I think once you're past about two charging stops, the time needed for charging starts to add up vs. bio / food breaks. Unless you get really lucky and can chow down at every charging stop. And 220 miles is the max range of a Model 3 Performance on Texas highways.

Why?

1. Autopilot and TACC. True not EV or Tesla specific.

2. The smooth quiet drivetrain. When going through parks, I like having all the windows open and enjoy the nice drives with no exhaust, engine, pano roof open and enjoying the views.

3. EVs with regen are fabulous for mountain driving. No brake use when going downhill. One pedal driving is great.

4. Quick instant torque to just make driving FUN! And also got me out of a couple close calls from people not paying attention.

5. Fun to talk to other Tesla owners. Usually a good group to discuss things while taking a short break at a supercharger if not eating or using the bathroom.

On my Model S, I averaged 268 wh/m over 2,600 miles. I took many back roads. I enjoyed the journey as well as the destination since I don’t simply do cannonball runs. If I want to be somewhere as fast as possible, I fly.

Not everyone is wired the same way. What I may or may not care about is probably different than the next person.

 

[nwdiver]

As for the range / charging, to me, much over 500 miles and I start to prefer the ICE over the EV. I think once you're past about two charging stops, the time needed for charging starts to add up vs. bio / food breaks. Unless you get really lucky and can chow down at every charging stop. And 220 miles is the max range of a Model 3 Performance on Texas highways.

Have you tried? When I sold my ICE 8 years ago to a friend I included the stipulation that I could borrow it for road trips. I've done several 1500 mile plus trips and never had a desire to borrow my ICE back. Stopping for ~20 minutes every 2 hours is just better IMHO and safer. With the CT charging stops will probably be closer to ~15 minutes every 2.5 hours.... I would expect most people will stop longer and more frequently. I hope Ford releases a F-150 that can use the 350kW CCS standard. That would make it much more competitive.

 

[seattlite2004]

@8:20

 

[T3SLAROD]

@8:20

400 + miles of range sounds great to me!

 

[tga]

@8:20

For those who didn't watch the video, Ford told him the 300 mile range is EPA estimated range WITH 1000 lbs of payload. During his tests, the truck was reporting 367 miles of range at ~80%, or 367/80% = 459 miles. He estimates the battery at 140-200kWh (in line with my 160kWh estimate, below).

19.2kW (80A@240V) for 8hrs = 153.6kWh. Assume 10% charging loss, that's ~138kWh delivered to the battery to add 85%, so 138/0.85 = ~160kWh pack.

19.2kW gives 30mph vs 59mph on my dual charger S. So the F-150 uses >600Wh/mile. Yikes!

160000Wh / 600Wh/mi = 267 mi range

160,000 Wh/459mi = 348Wh/mi (empty), which is lower than I would expect. Maybe his 367 mile indicated was city driving?

 

[MXLRplus]

That is literally the dumbest thing I heard in the last 20 min. Ford = Truck. F150 is the #selling vehicle in the US thus they own the word truck. I’m not even a truck guy and I get that. Mic drop

Me thinks you live in a (very small) Tesla bubble if you think Ford will struggle vs anybody SELLING the lightning. Now will they struggle keeping up with demand due to limited battery supply… perhaps. But truck people buying an EV truck are clearly going to go for the lightning first. Basic design features (eg traditional bed and side layout) means people can likely use existing or similar accessories - huge for those that have fleets. Not dissing Rivian or Tesla as they each have their place but just like the Hummer is designed for a very specific demographic (eg ballers) the lightning is the first truck designed for the masses.

battery supply will be the only issue though…

The GMC Sierra and Chevrolet Silverado are essentially the same. 850,000 were sold last year in US alone.
The Ford F-series was 790,000 in the same year (2020). I am a "truck guy" dating back to the '70's. For the first time in my adult life, I'm truckless. I'm using an MX instead, which is coming up short.

You have no grasp of the resistance that exists against EV adoption in any sector, much less with trucks.

Unless Ford can make the F-150 EV exciting, it won't sell to the masses, and it will really struggle with commercial buyers.

 

[SO16]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1398421304391372804