Fair Price for Air B&B L2 Charging?

[Twiglett]

I wouldn't bother using that Airbnb if the owner can't figure out his own rates, time to go somewhere else.
Stayed in one that had destination chargers and let them know I was staying there because it. They just built in the cost of potential charger use into the basic cost and made extra money on the folks who don't charge. They also figure that the majority of their visitors charge on arrival and very little afterwards - you know, like proper business people who understand their market.
Their biggest issue was people not staying at the house just coming up and plugging in - so they had to install a combination lock on the plug.

 

[Spacep0d]

If I wanted to for convenience, or needed to based on infrastructure availability, sure.

But where did we get $50/night from? Weren’t we talking about $25?

I just don’t understand why this is controversial. Vote with your wallet, pay or don’t pay. There are no extra EV Karma points for being an annoying errr.... “assertive” dolt on your girlfriend’s behalf.

Ain’t nobody got time for that. Had you rented one of my properties and then insisted on incessant negotiating after the fact I’d preemptively cancel your reservation as you’ve self identified as a Difficult Customer(tm).

Indeed, you don't understand why it's controversial. The owner of Airbnb wants to charge my girlfriend $50 a night for an unusable (to her) charging situation per my original post, though he thought it should be $25 a night as a guesstimate. I find it bizarre that he would tell her this. Owner thinks it will cost $25 per night (already too high), but hey let's charge YOU $50 per night! Hilarity. Maybe that's just the 'Tesla owner' rate?

Not all cars can charge level 2 without an EVSE like the Tesla can, and even then the Tesla needs its own cables and a $35 NEMA 14-50 adapter.

Obviously, we vote with our money, but that's not the point. The point is that I was trying to help the Airbnb owner (really) and also allow my girlfriend to charge since that's one of the reasons she chose this place. The owner just doesn't know what he's doing, and seems to think that destination charging should cost as much as filling up a Ford F-150. He's going to learn one way or another, because EV-owners tend not to be morons, lol.

Anyway, you can change a whole lot by simply trying to change it, minds are no exception. Simply refraining from offering your patronage isn't always clear enough for those who don't get it, but at least I made an attempt to educate someone about EVSEs, just as many of us do to dispel EV myths or explain why we love our Teslas (with the usual caveats). I prefer to use the carrot and the stick approach, but I also prefer to explain why I'm using the stick (that is, withholding of my patronage) so businesses can learn from it.

It's kinda like my other post where the real estate listing agent didn't understand why pictures of a garage for a home listing (with EV-readiness information) were a good thing, and he thought that the absence of complaints was justification somehow. I wrote a thoughtful email explaining what he's missing and why and guess what, he changed his mind! Turned out to be a nice guy, and smart enough to get it once explained. Now, he has a leg up on the competition if he just does a very simple thing, such as taking a few shots of the garage since a lot of listing agents seem to think that leaving this out makes sense, simply because that's the status quo.

 

[Spacep0d]

That's the price. Use it or not. You don't go to the corner store ask set your own price for milk. That is free enterprise as it should be.

I'm not denying for a second that the market will shape his pricing, but clearly this Airbnb owner is uneducated about EVs and their care and charging. So, a little education could go a long way. He wasn't very agreeable about it, but he cannot deny the facts as presented. Also, he could have graciously received the information and things could have turned out differently. I don't assume people to be recalcitrant or ignorant, but even if they are I don't fear a little confrontation so I was willing to see what would happen with some education.

Worse that'll happen is that he's a little grumpy about it but he's going to learn one way or another. He should understand that nearly every EV owner will know more than he does about this sort of thing. Obviously the market will set his pricing. I'm that first shot across the bow.

 

[Spacep0d]

I wouldn't bother using that Airbnb if the owner can't figure out his own rates, time to go somewhere else.
Stayed in one that had destination chargers and let them know I was staying there because it. They just built in the cost of potential charger use into the basic cost and made extra money on the folks who don't charge. They also figure that the majority of their visitors charge on arrival and very little afterwards - you know, like proper business people who understand their market.
Their biggest issue was people not staying at the house just coming up and plugging in - so they had to install a combination lock on the plug.

Yep, this is exactly what I would do, and noted on the precautions against freeloaders. This is the most logical way to handle it. The last thing he should be doing is getting all up in the grills of EV-owners with charging. Build into the rental (after understanding what it actually costs for peak charging, worst case) and continue to advertise it as added value for those affected.

 

[Spacep0d]

I believe just about every BEV (including Leaf) can get a 14-50 adapter. Because 14-50s are common at RV parks, it's a really good idea for every EV owner that travels to purchase this adapter for their vehicle.

As far as I understand it, many EVs cannot simply plug directly in to a Level 2 power source without an EVSE because the power isn't metered in any way and the car doesn't have the onboard tech to handle it (like a Tesla does). I could be wrong, but as a former LEAF S owner, this is my understanding having read a whole lot about charging on the LEAF forum(s) out there.

As some people put it, the Tesla has its own power handling circuits (time circuits?) to handle a direct connection to a NEMA 14-50 or similar with its own included EVSE that comes with the car. A LEAF (at least the older ones) would not, and I believe this is true for many older EVs. Things could be different now. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong though. I still think an EVSE is a superior solution because pretty much every EV owner can use the standard J1772 connector here in North America, Tesla owners (and their included J1772 adapters) included.

The EVSE meters the power appropriately for the draw that the car can handle, and it's probably lower risk for all involved. Certainly, it's usable for pretty much every EV driver here in the States as nobody's going to be surprised by the need for an adapter they don't have, didn't bring, or the rental owner didn't know enough to warn them about. Then again, if the owner is savvy he'd just hard wire a nice EVSE in and charge a flat rate per night to cover charging costs.

 

[Rocky_H]

but at least I made an attempt to educate someone about EVSEs, just as many of us do to dispel EV myths

So why are you spreading a crazy false EV myth? You've been saying this a few times in this thread, and it sounds like the crazy "Only Teslas have onboard chargers" nonsense.

Not all cars can charge level 2 without an EVSE like the Tesla can,

That's false. ALL electric cars need an EVSE--including Teslas.

As far as I understand it, many EVs cannot simply plug directly in to a Level 2 power source without an EVSE because the power isn't metered in any way and the car doesn't have the onboard tech to handle it (like a Tesla does). I could be wrong, but as a former LEAF S owner, this is my understanding having read a whole lot about charging on the LEAF forum(s) out there.

And this is all wrong.

As some people put it, the Tesla has its own power handling circuits (time circuits?) to handle a direct connection to a NEMA 14-50 or similar with its own included EVSE that comes with the car. A LEAF (at least the older ones) would not, and I believe this is true for many older EVs. Things could be different now. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong though.

And this is too.

Yet you are very critical of this AirBNB owner for not knowing how this works, despite yourself not knowing how it works.

You are spreading this myth that somehow Teslas can magically charge from AC electricity sources without an EVSE. It's not true. The mobile charge cable IS an EVSE. And many other newer EVs include charging cables with the 14-50 plug now too. The nicer version of Nissan Leaf since 2018, the Jaguar, the Audi, etc. come with those cables, and even for cars that don't include it, it's not hard for people to buy one if they want to charge from 14-50 outlets.

But sure, I agree that having a J1772 station is definitely more universal for anyone's EV that may not have the equipment with them.

And as for the pricing thing, Yeah, $50 would be too high, but $25 is about right with SoCal's crazy high electricity rates. And part of that is paying for the convenience factor. As a very relevant example, here in Idaho, we have some of the cheapest electricity rates in the country: between 8 and 9 cents per kWh. But here at the Shore Lodge in McCall, ID, use of their 14-50 is $25 per night, and it gets rave reviews on Plugshare for having it available.
PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You

 

[jerry33]

As far as I understand it, many EVs cannot simply plug directly in to a Level 2 power source without an EVSE because the power isn't metered in any way and the car doesn't have the onboard tech to handle it (like a Tesla does). I could be wrong, but as a former LEAF S owner, this is my understanding having read a whole lot about charging on the LEAF forum(s) out there.

This is definitely incorrect. All BEVs need an onboard charger to use A/C current (there are no A/C batteries). And the early Leafs could get a 14-50 adapter. At the time you had to send in the adapter that came with the car (or purchase a spare) and it was modified to use a 14-50. I never purchased one for the Leaf Denise drives because it never goes very far to start with (that's what the Tesla is for, and in 2015 there was no Model 3).

 

[cdswm3]

Yep, this is exactly what I would do, and noted on the precautions against freeloaders. This is the most logical way to handle it. The last thing he should be doing is getting all up in the grills of EV-owners with charging. Build into the rental (after understanding what it actually costs for peak charging, worst case) and continue to advertise it as added value for those affected.

Why should those who don't need to charge pay for it? Charging should be an addon for those who need it. As an owner I would think they could decide if the cost is material enough to charge for or treat it as a cost of operation.

 

[cdswm3]

So why are you spreading a crazy false EV myth? You've been saying this a few times in this thread, and it sounds like the crazy "Only Teslas have onboard chargers" nonsense.


That's false. ALL electric cars need an EVSE--including Teslas.

And this is all wrong.

And this is too.

Yet you are very critical of this AirBNB owner for not knowing how this works, despite yourself not knowing how it works.

You are spreading this myth that somehow Teslas can magically charge from AC electricity sources without an EVSE. It's not true. The mobile charge cable IS an EVSE. And many other newer EVs include charging cables with the 14-50 plug now too. The nicer version of Nissan Leaf since 2018, the Jaguar, the Audi, etc. come with those cables, and even for cars that don't include it, it's not hard for people to buy one if they want to charge from 14-50 outlets.

But sure, I agree that having a J1772 station is definitely more universal for anyone's EV that may not have the equipment with them.

And as for the pricing thing, Yeah, $50 would be too high, but $25 is about right with SoCal's crazy high electricity rates. And part of that is paying for the convenience factor. As a very relevant example, here in Idaho, we have some of the cheapest electricity rates in the country: between 8 and 9 cents per kWh. But here at the Shore Lodge in McCall, ID, use of their 14-50 is $25 per night, and it gets rave reviews on Plugshare for having it available.
PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You

I think $50.00 is for 2 days. $25.00 per day.

 

[Spacep0d]

I think $50.00 is for 2 days. $25.00 per day.

In my original post (I know it's a little confusing) I wrote that the owner thought $25 would be a good number (per night, charging) but he wants to charge my girlfriend $50 per night extra for charging, which is crazy. I still think even $25 is too high. He should just add $10 a night to pad it but not itemize the charges (so ICE-drivers don't get overly upset).

 

[Spacep0d]

So why are you spreading a crazy false EV myth? You've been saying this a few times in this thread, and it sounds like the crazy "Only Teslas have onboard chargers" nonsense.


That's false. ALL electric cars need an EVSE--including Teslas.

If you will read my latest post on this, I'm not stating it declaratively but am slow-rolling it and asking for correction. You're acting as if I carved it in stone. Sure, I know our Tesla chargers (that come with the car) are both L2 and L1 EVSEs, but I'm not sure this applies to all EVs. Maybe it does if what you're saying is accurate. Either way, not a lot of people are going to get benefit from a single, naked, upside-down NEMA 14-50 without some advance notice, and then who wants to buy a $35 adapter for what could be a one-time use?

Yet you are very critical of this AirBNB owner for not knowing how this works, despite yourself not knowing how it works.

Nice equivalence fallacy. The difference is that I know enough to have installed a hard-wired EVSE for Airbnb charging, but I don't claim to be the ultimate knowledge source on this stuff. I know that a single NEMA 14-50 without an EVSE is going to catch a lot of EV owners out if they don't have the right adaptor OR their charging equipment with them. With most L2 connections you don't need your own cables or your own EVSE, though Tesla owners will be able to make use of the adapter that comes with our cars.

You are spreading this myth that somehow Teslas can magically charge from AC electricity sources without an EVSE. It's not true. The mobile charge cable IS an EVSE.

I'm not trying to spread myths so much as recall what I understood to be the case with the LEAFs and other EVs. If you will note in recent posts, I was rolling this out with my recollection of it and asking for correction. You're acting like I'm saying the Earth is flat. I'm also not invoking magic.

And many other newer EVs include charging cables with the 14-50 plug now too. The nicer version of Nissan Leaf since 2018, the Jaguar, the Audi, etc. come with those cables, and even for cars that don't include it, it's not hard for people to buy one if they want to charge from 14-50 outlets.

"many other newer". So you're saying this hasn't always been the case?

But sure, I agree that having a J1772 station is definitely more universal for anyone's EV that may not have the equipment with them.

Which, unless specified, is going to be a whole lot of people. Even with our equipment, it's less convenient and a lot of Tesla owners aren't going to have the 14-50 adapter, or not have it with them. The J1772 EVSE is the way to go, which is what I told the owner.

And as for the pricing thing, Yeah, $50 would be too high, but $25 is about right with SoCal's crazy high electricity rates.

Right, this was another point of contention. I think even $25 a night is too high. There could be some agreed-upon charge for charging at peak times, or the owner could just pad the rental a bit for everyone. But, in my original post the owner wants to charge my girlfriend $50 a night as you read. Crazy!

And part of that is paying for the convenience factor. As a very relevant example, here in Idaho, we have some of the cheapest electricity rates in the country: between 8 and 9 cents per kWh. But here at the Shore Lodge in McCall, ID, use of their 14-50 is $25 per night, and it gets rave reviews on Plugshare for having it available.
PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You

I'm not so sure Tesla owners would think that's a great deal considering their range and the general availability of Superchargers in SoCal. Maybe in Idaho they're fewer and farther between. This is even more the case with non-Tesla DC-3 charging so I suppose more people would pay those rates. SoCal has a whole lot of options, despite our higher energy costs.

 

[Spacep0d]

Why should those who don't need to charge pay for it? Charging should be an addon for those who need it. As an owner I would think they could decide if the cost is material enough to charge for or treat it as a cost of operation.

Why include a complimentary continental breakfast option for hotel patrons across the board if not everyone eats it?

It's just part of the overall constellation of added-value and a way to subsidize energy costs and the cost of the equipment. Those ICE-drivers may be EV drivers later, or may have an EV as a second car. Either way, if it's not itemized, who's gonna know? If it's $10 a night, it's not going to break the bank anyway. This to me makes more sense than really trying to stick it hard to EV-owners, because a feature then becomes a possible deterrent and a locus of unhappy customers...who leave Yelp reviews.

I really don't think $25 a night would fly in SoCal, especially with Tesla owners. Way too many other viable options. In a super remote area, this might feel like a bargain, such as at the top of a mountain or something where they could get away with exorbitant prices for the sheer convenience of it.

 

[Spacep0d]

This is definitely incorrect. All BEVs need an onboard charger to use A/C current (there are no A/C batteries). And the early Leafs could get a 14-50 adapter. At the time you had to send in the adapter that came with the car (or purchase a spare) and it was modified to use a 14-50. I never purchased one for the Leaf Denise drives because it never goes very far to start with (that's what the Tesla is for, and in 2015 there was no Model 3).

Thanks for the correction. I never had the luxury to charge with 14-50 with the LEAF S I had, and perhaps my recollection from the forums is wrong here. I either used my trickle charger or charged at the DC-3 EVGO near home.

In any case, it's hard to go wrong with an EVSE that provides a nice J1772 connector, as it won't require additional adapters or cables from a wide array of EV-drivers.

 

[Gasaraki]

$25 a night is expensive. Lets say that you arrive with 0% and charge to 100% overnight. Also assume the battery size is 75KWh. Also assume that power is .20/KWh.

20 cents/KWh x 75KWh = $15

This is probably the worst case and it only costs $15. $25 is expensive and $50 is a ripoff.

 

[cdswm3]

Why include a complimentary continental breakfast option for hotel patrons across the board if not everyone eats it?

It's just part of the overall constellation of added-value and a way to subsidize energy costs and the cost of the equipment. Those ICE-drivers may be EV drivers later, or may have an EV as a second car. Either way, if it's not itemized, who's gonna know? If it's $10 a night, it's not going to break the bank anyway. This to me makes more sense than really trying to stick it hard to EV-owners, because a feature then becomes a possible deterrent and a locus of unhappy customers...who leave Yelp reviews.

I really don't think $25 a night would fly in SoCal, especially with Tesla owners. Way too many other viable options. In a super remote area, this might feel like a bargain, such as at the top of a mountain or something where they could get away with exorbitant prices for the sheer convenience of it.

It might be easier just not to bother providing charging. I would appreciate being able to pay to use a charger if needed. $25.00 a night might just be worth it to me.

 

[jjrandorin]

$25 a night is robbery. Lets say that you arrive with 0% and charge to 100% overnight. Also assume the battery size is 75KWh. Also assume that power is .20/KWh.

20 cents/KWh x 75KWh = $15

This is probably the worst case and it only costs $15. $25 is expensive and $50 is a ripoff.

As I said, its not 20 cents a kWh pretty much anywhere in CA, and you have to assume Peak rates which as I stated are 36 to 52 cents a kWh in California depending on what plan you are on.

Also, I would appreciate it if you would explain your "disagree" on my post regarding not charging from the grid with powerwalls when you have solar. That post is factually correct, so I am unclear what you are disagreeing with (there is no opinion there, only fact).

 

[Gasaraki]

That's the price. Use it or not. You don't go to the corner store ask set your own price for milk. That is free enterprise as it should be.

If milk was $20, you won't complain?

 

[Gasaraki]

As I said, its not 20 cents a kWh pretty much anywhere in CA, and you have to assume Peak rates which as I stated are 36 to 52 cents a kWh in California depending on what plan you are on.

Also, I would appreciate it if you would explain your "disagree" on my post regarding not charging from the grid with powerwalls when you have solar. That post is factually correct, so I am unclear what you are disagreeing with (there is no opinion there, only fact).

I know you can charge the powerwalls at night using off grid power. Saying you can't is just not true at all. That's how people save money from buying powerwalls.

 

[jjrandorin]

I know you can charge the powerwalls at night using off grid power. Saying you can't is just not true at all. That's how people save money from buying powerwalls.

No, you can not charge from the grid using off grid power when you have solar. That is 1000000% not true. I suggest you look into it more, As I said the only time you can charge from the grid when you have solar at all, is when tesla triggers the storm watch mode, which is for emergency filling and has nothing to do with off peak usage.

I suggest you check again. As I mentioned, I actually have solar, have powerwalls, and am very (very) familiar with what you can and cant do with them. If you have powerwalls and are able to charge them from the grid AND ALSO HAVE SOLAR, I would like to see some proof that you have this setup (you wont be able to provide it, unless you are not in the US as the rules are different for people with powerwalls and solar internationally).

"how people save money with powerwalls" with solar is because they can fill their powerwalls with solar power, then use the solar power that is now stored in their powerwalls during the peak TOU time.

This is all US based, but OP, me (and you) are in the US so what I am saying is 100% factually correct as far as how powerwalls can be used in the US, if you have solar.

 

[Gasaraki]

No, you can not charge from the grid using off grid power when you have solar. That is 1000000% not true. I suggest you look into it more, As I said the only time you can charge from the grid when you have solar at all, is when tesla triggers the storm watch mode, which is for emergency filling and has nothing to do with off peak usage.

I suggest you check again. As I mentioned, I actually have solar, have powerwalls, and am very (very) familiar with what you can and cant do with them. If you have powerwalls and are able to charge them from the grid AND ALSO HAVE SOLAR, I would like to see some proof that you have this setup (you wont be able to provide it, unless you are not in the US as the rules are different for people with powerwalls and solar internationally).

"how people save money with powerwalls" with solar is because they can fill their powerwalls with solar power, then use the solar power that is now stored in their powerwalls during the peak TOU time.

This is all US based, but OP, me (and you) are in the US so what I am saying is 100% factually correct as far as how powerwalls can be used in the US, if you have solar.

Please... Ben Sullans does this. He lives in Southern California, has 2 powerwalls and has solar.