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Fair tug of war?
- Thread starter dzmconstr
- Start date
Whenever there is a comparison between a Tesla and a different vehicle where the Tesla doesn't come out on top you'll have Musk and his followers whining: waah, it was so unfair, the Tesla wasn't put in superduperdoubleeasteregg mode, the battery wasn't massaged by hand to the right temperature, whatever.
Yet for Tesla to pull a brazenly insincere stunt with another company's product, that's fine, eh?
"Integrity" is a term that apparently was somehow left out of Musk's thesaurus.
Yet for Tesla to pull a brazenly insincere stunt with another company's product, that's fine, eh?
"Integrity" is a term that apparently was somehow left out of Musk's thesaurus.
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thegruf
Active Member
needs two rules only.
Stock vehicle (ok the Tesla is a prototype) with one driver and no added mass.
Identical tyres - otherwise it is would be mostly a traction comparison of the tyres.
(and ahem but I suspect seombody at Ford who accepted this challenge doesn't know much about EVs but hopefully both manufacturers get it on and have a good laugh at each other and themselves for some great fun PR, even if they lose Ford can still win big from the publicity)
Stock vehicle (ok the Tesla is a prototype) with one driver and no added mass.
Identical tyres - otherwise it is would be mostly a traction comparison of the tyres.
(and ahem but I suspect seombody at Ford who accepted this challenge doesn't know much about EVs but hopefully both manufacturers get it on and have a good laugh at each other and themselves for some great fun PR, even if they lose Ford can still win big from the publicity)
thegruf
Active Member
Wrong on every count, but never mind clearly "just having a bit of fun" is not in your dna.
There’s a slight difference between obvious marketing and a publication pretending to be impartial but actually biasing the results. Tesla is biased in favor of their vehicles?!?!?! Say it ain’t so!Also, by the way, it doesn’t really matter how you try to do the comparison, the EV(and Tesla in particular) will always come out on top. Not necessarily because of power, but because Tesla’s traction control is second to none. Any ICEv is going to either dramatically undershoot and get pulled or break static friction(and get pulled), while the Tesla will hover right at the upper limit without breaking traction. This is why Elon accepted the challenge and why Ford immediately threw in the towel.
MagnusMako
Member
So we can solve the weight issue by loading down the Ford, assuming the Cybertruck is easily heavier all around.
The question is which Ford and which Cybertruck was even used in the demo? None of that was ever even detailed from the unveil.
I think the F-350 crew cab 6.7 liter versus the DM AWD would be somewhat of a fair fight if we're going by price. There are many combinations we can go with so it kind of depends on what the torque numbers are for each version of Ford. The F-450 4x4 too could be an option but it sits squarely in the middle between the DM AWD and Tri Motor Cybertruck.
The question is which Ford and which Cybertruck was even used in the demo? None of that was ever even detailed from the unveil.
I think the F-350 crew cab 6.7 liter versus the DM AWD would be somewhat of a fair fight if we're going by price. There are many combinations we can go with so it kind of depends on what the torque numbers are for each version of Ford. The F-450 4x4 too could be an option but it sits squarely in the middle between the DM AWD and Tri Motor Cybertruck.
EM said the CT is the same weight as the F150. See here at 0:38.
Another factor is weight distribution and wheelbase. That's why drag cars are long. CT has a longer wheelbase, but I'm unsure if the center of mass will be as far forwards as the F150 with a V6 in the front. I'd be surprised if the CT doesn't win if they are equal mass.
Another factor is weight distribution and wheelbase. That's why drag cars are long. CT has a longer wheelbase, but I'm unsure if the center of mass will be as far forwards as the F150 with a V6 in the front. I'd be surprised if the CT doesn't win if they are equal mass.
Yeah the f450 is not squarely in the middle. Man that is a work truck, it will beat you up driving it all day everyday. The cybertruck is going to sit at the f250-350 range of things but work with silky smooth ride. I will be trading in my 6.4 08 F350 (deleted of course) with 290k miles. It's done ok but is is a f350 that eats front suspension elements. It is diesel, useful but I hate it. It shakes and beats you. Give me a quite smooth electric ride any day. Now then you make it possible to back my skidsteer into the door and not leave a giant scar..even better.
What I will need on my truck is a trailer equal to the truck. I'll start a new thread.
For one, 1.0 is not perfect traction. Coefficients of friction can theoretically stretch to infinity. If you measure the cof of glue for instance, much higher than 1. Galled stainless on stainless is higher than 1. Basically 1.0 is not a special case other than it means 1g accel is possible.
Yes, that is part of the answer. Tires that turn into viscous goo when you melt them during the pre-race burnout. But the bulk of the answer is related to down-force. If you watch the start of the race closely, you can see the car get pushed down by the force of the exhaust pipes which are aimed straight up.
Not sure winning the tug of war by having the heavier vehicle is a good thing. Generally, lighter is better.
The exceptions being when you are towing something heavy and need the mass to keep the tow vehicle more in control of a heavy trailer and when doing tug of war stunts.
The exceptions being when you are towing something heavy and need the mass to keep the tow vehicle more in control of a heavy trailer and when doing tug of war stunts.
Swampgator
Active Member
Tesla traction control is so far superior to any ICE truck system that even if weight and torque were equal, the Cybertruck will win.
Zybane
Member
The CyberTruck will rape any ICE pickup truck in a tow test. Like an electric traction motor diesel train locomotive, maximum torque is at 0.00001 RPM.
You would have to rev up a ICE pickup truck to get any decent torque, and that works against it as it will break the tires loose and be an instant win for the Tesla.
You would have to rev up a ICE pickup truck to get any decent torque, and that works against it as it will break the tires loose and be an instant win for the Tesla.
corduroy
Active Member
I don't fault Tesla for using marketing tactics like this. People are emotional and remember images like this way more than torque specs or other metrics. In many of the comments I read on general stories about the Cybertruck, people don't even think it has a truck bed. So for that audience who doesn't understand the first thing about this truck, a visual like this might resonate more.
eye.surgeon
Active Member
The test is largely nonsense but Tesla has shown plenty of willingness to engage in nonsense promotion in the past, aka "safest car in the world", exaggerated HP ratings they later had to walk back, price after savings, coast to coast autopilot trips that never materialized, and of course the ultimate pointless nonsense test that will live in infamy, the unbreakable glass demo.
Still love my model S just to make that clear
Still love my model S just to make that clear
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Enginerd
Member
One other factor to consider is the location of the center of gravity over the drive wheels. Consider 2 identical rear wheel drive trucks on an incline, and assume the CG is 2 feet above the midpoint between the tires. The uphill truck is reacting more of its weight over the driven rear tires, while the downhill truck is reacting more of its weight over the passive front tires. Purely in terms of friction force, the uphill truck has the advantage due to greater vertical force at the drive tires. The uphill truck will of course need more torque to move the combined mass uphill, but neither truck had insufficient torque in this case.
That said, because the Cybertruck presumably has a lower CG than the Ford, it will benefit less from the incline, while the Ford would suffer more because the CG is not only higher but probably closer to the passive front wheels.
All that aside, I'd bet the Tesla was a good 1000 lb heavier, which would be the dominant friction term.
F = mu * m * g
mu = friction coefficient, which would be the same if tires were identical
g = gravity, the same value applies to everyone
m = mass... this is the heavy hitter, pun intended
That said, because the Cybertruck presumably has a lower CG than the Ford, it will benefit less from the incline, while the Ford would suffer more because the CG is not only higher but probably closer to the passive front wheels.
All that aside, I'd bet the Tesla was a good 1000 lb heavier, which would be the dominant friction term.
F = mu * m * g
mu = friction coefficient, which would be the same if tires were identical
g = gravity, the same value applies to everyone
m = mass... this is the heavy hitter, pun intended
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