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Falcon 9 FT 2nd reuse launch - BulgariaSat 1 - LC-39A

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Posting here as this is the most active current SpaceX thread -

SES's own website makes triple use of the term "flight-proven". I like!

Here is their press release of the SES-10 launch. From ses.com/press-release/ Emboldening is mine.
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Written on 15 May 2017


SES-10, the first satellite launched using a SpaceX flight-proven rocket, will provide direct-to-home broadcasting, enterprise and mobility services

LUXEMBOURG, 15 MAY 2017 -- SES (Euronext Paris and Luxembourg Stock Exchange: SESG) announced today that the SES-10 satellite is now fully operational at 67 degrees West and will be serving the thriving markets in the Latin America region.

SES-10 was launched on 30 March 2017 from NASA’s Kennedy Space Centre in Florida onboard a flight-proven SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket. The satellite is the first geostationary commercial satellite ever launched on a flight-proven first-stage rocket booster.
 
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Posting here as this is the most active current SpaceX thread -

SES's own website makes triple use of the term "flight-proven". I like!

Here is their press release of the SES-10 launch. From ses.com/press-release/ Emboldening is mine.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Written on 15 May 2017


SES-10, the first satellite launched using a SpaceX flight-proven rocket, will provide direct-to-home broadcasting, enterprise and mobility services

LUXEMBOURG, 15 MAY 2017 -- SES (Euronext Paris and Luxembourg Stock Exchange: SESG) announced today that the SES-10 satellite is now fully operational at 67 degrees West and will be serving the thriving markets in the Latin America region.

SES-10 was launched on 30 March 2017 from NASA’s Kennedy Space Centre in Florida onboard a flight-proven SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket. The satellite is the first geostationary commercial satellite ever launched on a flight-proven first-stage rocket booster.

Note to self. SES-10 (Luxembourg). First flight proven rocket booster satellite delivery. For those future trivial pursuit games... oh wait. Not sure if anyone plays those anymore... dang it.
 
Any clarity whether this will be ASDS or RTLS yet?
So far every GTO launch has been ASDS landing or expendable. GTO launches doing RTLS are only expected for small satellites. Its far more likely the customer will ask for a super sync injection rather than waste the performance required to RTLS (even if they have to pay a little extra).
RTLS to GTO is likely to be restricted to Falcon Heavy.
 
Disagree. It is explicitly the technical challenges for re-flight that dictate the timeframe, and it is explicitly SpaceX's willingness to refly a booster that dictates the timeframe. They know that any failure of a re-used booster would set the concept of re-use back years (or more).

Customers don't care. They want a cheap ride to get their thing into space.

Would you agree that the procurement of a space launch contract is usually done several years in advance of the launch?
 
Would you agree that the procurement of a space launch contract is usually done several years in advance of the launch?
Its very true that when a satellite is ordered, the customer also must secure a launch contract.
But here's the rub, often the satellite can be ready before a launch slot can be available.
Also, if a company like SpaceX offers a launch contract where its cheaper to pay the cancellation fee plus SpaceX's fee and still save some more money, then SpaceX can steal the customer much closer to the customer's actual launch date. The customer might be able to keep both launch contracts until just a few months before the launch date.

The key factor that has been preventing SpaceX from doing massive damage to Ariane and ILS launch pipeline is that SpaceX was seen as unable to keep up with their promissed dates. Once SpaceX has more potential launch slots than customers, where it can fit in last minute opportunities and in the case of a stand down it can recover from that with a brisk launch pace, a lot of the value left in Ariane/ILS proposition, since SpaceX already is cheaper than the competition.

Even more important is once an alternative rocket like a pure Raptor mini ITS or a smaller one is flying a launch failure on the pure Raptor or the pure Merlin rockets take place might allow SpaceX to shift to the other LV and keep launching !
 
Disagree. It is explicitly the technical challenges for re-flight that dictate the timeframe, and it is explicitly SpaceX's willingness to refly a booster that dictates the timeframe. They know that any failure of a re-used booster would set the concept of re-use back years (or more).

Customers don't care. They want a cheap ride to get their thing into space.


Customer cares about cost of launch, including insurance. They also care how long time they have to wait. Loss of a cargo could mean years of delay.
 
I suppose this is on topic since we are discussing reuse on a reuse flight thread. We should see much less chance of a flight failure sometime after SpaceX stabilizes their design with the "block 5" final design iteration. If the design isn't changing and inspections show that multiple reuse is not causing flight issues then we'll really see SpaceX Falcon 9 with numbers similar to Atlas V and ArianneSpace. As far as I am concerned I want to see no more failures ever except at McGregor during planned testing where they are pushing for failure.
 
Sure.

The difference now is that reusable rockets are unchartered territory. There are no unwritten rules yet for everyone to accept and follow.

So you disagreed with my argument that instead of the time frame between launches being set by technical challenges it is being set by a customer. You also made the argument, that customers don't care if a rocket is flight proven or not, they just want a cheap ride into space.

For example for the nex attempt at re-use (BulgariaSat-1) the launch contract was signed back in September of 2014 for a launch in 2016. The launch contract was signed for a new booster, not a flight proven booster. What a customer wants is a combination of cost, timeliness of launch and reliability. The priority of those three factors depends on the customer. For example, NASA emphasizes reliability and timeliness over cost. Same with a customer like the USAF.

So at this point of re-usability, SpaceX has to convince customers that already have a signed launch contract for a new booster to choose a flight proven booster. In addition for most customers, SpaceX is running about 6+ months behind schedule from contract launch dates. Not an easy road for SpaceX to convince a customer to put a $200+ Million dollar satellite at increased risk, that is not easily replaceable to save $10M-20M to be one of the first couple customers to use flight proven hardware. Not a straight forward decision. To me the evidence point to the fact that it isn't easy to convince a customer to re-use flight proven hardware when they had contracted for new hardware.

Maybe that is why booster 1026 from the JCSat-16 launch is sitting shrinkwrapped outside a hanger in Florida. Also, SpaceX went through the trouble of taking two flight proven boosters, 1023 and 1025 and reconstructing them for the side boosters for FH. Despite the cost of having to do the modifications necessary to both boosters to be the side boosters on a FH launch and also refurbishing them. If SpaceX had customers willing to fly on flight proven boosters it would have been cheaper to build new side boosters for the FH and refurbish the flight-proven hardware to support another single stick F9 launch, but that didn't happen. It was kind of like we have these lightly used single stick boosters that nobody wants, let's modify them for FH.

The full impact of reusable will not be fully realized for a couple of more years as current customers wait for somebody else to go first and SpaceX starts signing new launch contracts at reduced prices that will use flight proven hardware.
 
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I'll say it again, customers do all the technical/engineering checks to be comfortable with SpaceX reflights at the technical/engineer level.
But when it gets to the people that signs on the dotted line, they want the acceptance of their engineers plus the "show me" factor.
A single relaunch isn't enough to satisfy the "show me" for most customers. Once 3 successful relaunches take place, hopefully without a hitch, most customers will actually be able to sign on the dotted line. After 6 relaunches and perhaps the first re-re-launch, pretty much every commercial customer is on board, and govt customers will start producing their extra paperwork requirements SpaceX must produce for relaunches.
Before the first SpaceX successful landing said on NSF that landing would be the hard part. Relaunching wouldn't be hard. SpaceX knows how to launch rockets and they know how to qualify/check them before relaunching.
 
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I suppose this is on topic since we are discussing reuse on a reuse flight thread. We should see much less chance of a flight failure sometime after SpaceX stabilizes their design with the "block 5" final design iteration. If the design isn't changing and inspections show that multiple reuse is not causing flight issues then we'll really see SpaceX Falcon 9 with numbers similar to Atlas V and ArianneSpace. As far as I am concerned I want to see no more failures ever except at McGregor during planned testing where they are pushing for failure.

I don't think any of us wants to see more failures. Although knowing it could explode makes those launches more interesting to watch. Insurance companies are in key position here. I read (from forum post) that insurance costs for SX launches did not increase after September failure. I guess that they need 40 good launches before insurance costs goes down. But then they are more competitive. Failure this year would be very bad for SpaceX.

Insurance companies decide when reused stage is as safe or safer than untested. It might happen soon.
 
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So you disagreed with my argument that instead of the time frame between launches being set by technical challenges it is being set by a customer. You also made the argument, that customers don't care if a rocket is flight proven or not, they just want a cheap ride into space.

Yes and yes. And yes, I’m well aware you also thought you were setting an internet trap for me. :p

For example for the nex attempt at re-use (BulgariaSat-1) the launch contract was signed back in September of 2014 for a launch in 2016. The launch contract was signed for a new booster, not a flight proven booster.

That’s an odd example. Setting aside the details of how that all went down (I don’t know how much is public knowledge), Bulgariasat originally had a new, expensive F9. They later cut a deal for a less expensive re-fly F9 that also got them on orbit sooner. Soooo…customers want cheap rides that get them into space.

NASA emphasizes reliability and timeliness over cost. Same with a customer like the USAF.

Fair. My ‘cheap rides’ comment was in context of geocomm (partially because that's the thread topic, and partially because that’s what I do, or at least did), but I accept that I did not explicitly make that distinction. So I’ll revise: Commercial geocomm customers just want a cheap ride to get them into space. The government still lives in the stone age with respect to risk tolerance.

The rest of your post is complete speculation that it is the customers driving the turnaround for re-flight, not SpaceX. There are plenty of reasons for SpaceX to take a measured approach to reflight. Its completely reasonable that they’d want to refurb used cores for FH instead of bolting on someone's $200M spacecraft.

Again, beyond the due diligence and confidence a geocomm customer expects from SpaceX that the rocket will get them into space—which is EXACTLY what a customer expects of every LV manufacturer for EVERY rocket—the customers don’t care if its new or refurbished. Will it get them to orbit? Great. Will it cost them less money? Even better.
 
I don’t disagree with the overall post, but in the interest of providing a little color:

Its very true that when a satellite is ordered, the customer also must secure a launch contract.

While I haven’t personally negotiated a launch contract, I think this is mostly just a function of practicality. Concurrent spacecraft and launch vehicle contract negotiation happens because it makes sense from a cashflow and business model. One does no good without the other. It also provides a layer of confidence in the LV or SC manufacturer that the operator isn’t going to flake on their big contract, because the operator would also have to flake on the other big contract. That said, there are a fair number of commercial contracts that have the SC manufacture procure the launch service [instead of the operator], so in those cases there explicitly wouldn’t be a signed LV contract when the SC is signed…but it’s kind of no matter, because the norm in commercial space is handshakes and ATPs anyway. Entities have no problem moving forward without an official, signed contract in this industry. The industry is small, everyone talks to everyone, and royally screwing over any of the players you might need on your side down the road is bad for credibility.

The other facet is that there’s often prime and secondary launch contracts. Because of the serious consequences of a stalled manifest (NewSkies 8, Amos 6, seemingly every other Proton…) customers want their foot in the door of another LV's manifest. Obviously that’s more upfront cost, but it’s an insurance hedge that most take.

But here's the rub, often the satellite can be ready before a launch slot can be available.

Its probably a bit of semantics and a bit of chicken-and-the-egg, but that’s not typically the case. There’s rarely more than a few months between the completion of a commercial spacecraft and its launch (or at least, ship) date. Again, the industry is small and everyone talks to everyone, so everyone knows what’s happening. As a result the LV providers are constantly tuning their manifests—adjustments that are based significantly on spacecraft availability. In the cases where the launch slot isn’t available and a spacecraft would be done way early, typically spacecraft manufacturing slows down instead. Again it’s a cashflow thing [that benefits both the CM and the operator]. Unlike NASA or other gub’ment activity, we’re in this industry to make a buck, after all. For sure, there are occasional cases where spacecraft get put in mid or long term ground storage, but that’s usually due to a LV anomaly, or when business models change and extra on-orbit capacity is not needed and NOT because the spacecraft is simply waiting for a ride. It does no good for an operator to put their 15 year spacecraft on orbit a year before they need its capacity…

Also, if a company like SpaceX offers a launch contract where its cheaper to pay the cancellation fee plus SpaceX's fee and still save some more money, then SpaceX can steal the customer much closer to the customer's actual launch date. The customer might be able to keep both launch contracts until just a few months before the launch date.

It’s a little more nuanced than that. Typically big GEO spacecraft go through LV unique dynamic test profiles, with notching specific to the LV performance, and in some cases explicitly defining the LV performance. There’s also a ton of range safety and range manifest stuff that needs to be worked (especially on American soil…:eek:), AND there's usually call-up stipulations in LV and SC contracts that are on the order of months, so typically the LV is locked in many months before launch. Switching vehicles is a BFD. Even late hour switching of spots in launch manifests--which typically (ahem) manifests itself as switching launch hardware--is a chore. Right now, every rocket is unique. They're snowflakes with different revisions for gizmos, procedures, software, non-conformances, etc. A manufacture needs to convince both customers that they'll be okay with the other guy's uniqueities.

Time will tell if the industry will become more cutthroat with stealing contracts and such, but my guess is that won’t happen, or at least anytime soon. There just aren’t enough players for that to be sustainable. More likely is that SpaceX effectively puts everyone else out of business (ULA, Ariane, KhSC), at least in the commercial market. Its kind of sad, but those big launcher companies might be relegated--like the shuttle--to government jobs programs. :(