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ggr

Expert in Dunning-Kruger Effect!
Mar 24, 2011
6,972
27,477
San Diego, CA
I'm not sure where that information comes from, but IMHO its a bit dubious. Of course its sub-optimal to launch in a direction that's not due east, but an inclination change during ascent or once in orbit is much more sub optimal. I'm sure you could do a study where you compare the total amount of energy used on ISS expedition/resupply missions to find a theoretical optimal inclination, but it would be something close to 46 degrees, not halfway between 28 and 46.
Let me clarify then. Launching to an inclination other than the latitude of the launch site (either more or less) incurs a penalty sacrifice of orbital velocity from the earth's rotation. That penalty is roughly proportional to the angular difference. So when you're launching only from Baikonur, 46 degrees is optimal. If you're launching only from the Cape, 28 degrees is optimal. But when half your launches are from one, and half are from the other, it would be better to even out the angular differences, so launch to the northeast from the Cape and southeast from Baikonur in equal amounts. Halfway is 37 degrees. As it currently stands, it hurts Cape launches a lot more than Baikonur launches, in terms of loss of help from the Earth's rotation, because of the greater difference. Note also I said "roughly" because of course it's more complicated than that, what with trig functions and all.
 

bxr140

Active Member
Nov 18, 2014
2,623
3,283
Bay Area
That penalty is roughly proportional to the angular difference.

Note also I said "roughly" because of course it's more complicated than that, what with trig functions and all.

I understood your assessment; its the conclusion that is incorrect.

The problem is that it takes significantly more delta V to make the inclination change from [the theoretical] Baikonur 46 down to 37 (or some proposed middle ground inclination) than you gain by launching from a slightly shallower inclination from The Cape. To make that inclination change from Baikonur you have to wait until you're on orbit where you're moving WAY faster than the surface of the earth, so any directional changes you make require a LOT of energy.

Putting real numbers on it (and assuming I didn't make any errors in my super quick math) you gain 48m/s by launching at 37 degrees from The Cape instead of launching into the theoretical Baikonur 46. Conversely, launching at 46 degrees from Baikonur and then turning into a 37 degree inclination once on orbit requires you burn additional 1.19km/s. So...for your middle ground 37 degree ISS orbit, you waste 1.19km/s for every Baikonur launch to gain only 48 m/s for every Cape launch.

Mathed a different way, your "roughly" ideal inclination is ~44.5 degrees, at least when you just consider delta-V. Obviously that doesn't take into account mass, but if we were to consider the history of ISS launches which are overwhelmingly Russian, total mass launched would certainly push that ideal inclination even closer to Baikonur.

Of course, all of the above means absolutely nothing when you factor the minimum practical inclination of 51.6 from Baikonur. :oops:
 

Grendal

SpaceX Moderator
Jan 31, 2012
5,683
6,836
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Will Boca Chica's geography permit both Eastern and Southern launches?

It looks that way to me. You're over water for either of those types of launch. As far as I understand, you need to launch over water because a RUD will scatter debris and potentially toxic chemicals (not so much with SpX) in a way that doesn't have it fall on people's heads.
 

bxr140

Active Member
Nov 18, 2014
2,623
3,283
Bay Area
Will Boca Chica's geography permit both Eastern and Southern launches?

If you look at the ground path of polar launches--regardless if they go north (like Kourou or the various Russian spaceports) or south (like VAFB), they're typically angled just barely westward. Eyeball that on Boca Chica and you're flying over land.

Boca Chica will be able to support most if not all of the practical non-polar orbits. Other than a Molnyia there's not much good in going past ~50-55 degrees inclination.
 

ggr

Expert in Dunning-Kruger Effect!
Mar 24, 2011
6,972
27,477
San Diego, CA
I understood your assessment; its the conclusion that is incorrect.

The problem is that it takes significantly more delta V to make the inclination change from [the theoretical] Baikonur 46 down to 37 (or some proposed middle ground inclination) than you gain by launching from a slightly shallower inclination from The Cape. To make that inclination change from Baikonur you have to wait until you're on orbit where you're moving WAY faster than the surface of the earth, so any directional changes you make require a LOT of energy.

Putting real numbers on it (and assuming I didn't make any errors in my super quick math) you gain 48m/s by launching at 37 degrees from The Cape instead of launching into the theoretical Baikonur 46. Conversely, launching at 46 degrees from Baikonur and then turning into a 37 degree inclination once on orbit requires you burn additional 1.19km/s. So...for your middle ground 37 degree ISS orbit, you waste 1.19km/s for every Baikonur launch to gain only 48 m/s for every Cape launch.

Mathed a different way, your "roughly" ideal inclination is ~44.5 degrees, at least when you just consider delta-V. Obviously that doesn't take into account mass, but if we were to consider the history of ISS launches which are overwhelmingly Russian, total mass launched would certainly push that ideal inclination even closer to Baikonur.

Of course, all of the above means absolutely nothing when you factor the minimum practical inclination of 51.6 from Baikonur. :oops:
Thanks for your correction. I completely forgot that to get to a lesser inclination you have to launch then correct the orbit.
 
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bxr140

Active Member
Nov 18, 2014
2,623
3,283
Bay Area
Thanks for your correction. I completely forgot that to get to a lesser inclination you have to launch then correct the orbit.

That's why we're here. :)

Also, I did Bad Math for the cape side of the equation, but it's generally in the right ballpark. I'll fix if I have time tomorrow. :oops:
 

Raven

Member
Oct 9, 2012
295
19
US
Alright, I’m headed towards KSC today for the launch. Any tips on where to best view it? I understand Playalinda Beach is off-limits as it’s too close. Any suggestions are appreciated. I’m not entirely interested in going to the visitor center to ride the bus out.
 

Grendal

SpaceX Moderator
Jan 31, 2012
5,683
6,836
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Here we go:

Now that the launches are becoming more routine, if you prefer an outside hosted live feed commenting on all things SpaceX. Kind of a launch "Play by Play." Then I'll put this out as well. It's a live feed of the launch hosted by the Everyday Astronaut. There are active comments happening and Tim Dodd (The Everyday Astronaut) will do his best to answer questions you ask. His live feed starts a lot earlier so he can answer questions and pass on lots of data.


The timing for this launch is still:
Launch window: 2253-0053 GMT (6:53-8:53 p.m. EDT)
 

ecarfan

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2013
19,186
13,841
San Mateo, CA
I think those grid fins should be retired before that stage is re-flown.

Love seeing these nominal missions, but had a moment of concern when the ASDS camera showed the stage above the deck and then everything went white! Video camera saturated, but all I could think of was RUD.
 
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e-FTW

New electron smell
Aug 23, 2015
3,234
3,036
San Francisco, CA
It's a live feed of the launch hosted by the Everyday Astronaut. There are active comments happening and Tim Dodd (The Everyday Astronaut) will do his best to answer questions you ask. His live feed starts a lot earlier so he can answer questions and pass on lots of data.
That was cool, I like his coverage. So enthusiastic! The hand rubbing is hilarious.
But the best part was during the first stage re-entry, when he thought they had lost the stage, and he got that look...
 
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Anon2

Of Course I Trust You Will Do The Right Thing
Jul 13, 2017
83
36
Philadelphia Pennsylvania
Tonight's Stage One configuration was a 2nd mission. First being SRS-10 flown to resupply the ISS. EchoStar 105/SES-11 lifts off from Launch Complex 39A at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center, Florida. This is SpaceX's 2nd launch for Echostar and 4th for SES. Stage one finishes strong with Falcon 9's reentry and flawless landing (now 18 in all) on the “Of Course I Still Love You” droneship pad. Stage two carrying payload of satellites were successfully deployed for delivery to its geostationary transfer orbit target (GTO).

 

palmer_md

Member
Sep 26, 2012
800
247
Hermosa Beach, CA
the burn on entry before the landing seemed a little odd this time. When it stopped, it seemed to have a bunch more activity than I'm used to seeing and then the signal was lost. Was there something different about this re-entry burn?
 
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