Wiki Super Heavy/Starship - General Development Discussion

[mongo]

While the Ship has flown and landed, the booster has never flown.

Perhaps it might have been wise to test the booster by flying it the same distance as the Ship and try landing it by catching on the chopsticks.

What benefit would that test provide?
Having an unproven booster purposely operating around Stage Zero more than necessary seems risk heavy.

Requirements:
Get Starship to 64km with appropriate velocity
Separate and spin
Relight for boostback
Survive re-entry
Relight for landing
Control both its position and zero velocity point

Once all those are achieved, then move the 0,0 point to the chopsticks.

 

[Knightshade]

I'm no rocket surgeon, but curious if anyone has any thoughts on this guys take on why F9 is incredible but Starship is dumb- (the lack of flame diverter stuff being just a tiny bit of his criticisms all the way back to design stage and intent of vehicle)

alright why the fuck is starship Like That how could a company that was as ostensibly competent as spacex really just screw this thing up

i figure the rundown is good but i was about to start talking folks ears off in comments, and i've had this conversation in discord a lot today already, but like. We know elon musk is a shitstain, but SpaceX is a successful company despite him, despite being a meat grinder for aerospace...

tinyurl.com

 

[mongo]

I'm no rocket surgeon, but curious if anyone has any thoughts on this guys take on why F9 is incredible but Starship is dumb- (the lack of flame diverter stuff being just a tiny bit of his criticisms all the way back to design stage and intent of vehicle)

alright why the fuck is starship Like That how could a company that was as ostensibly competent as spacex really just screw this thing up

i figure the rundown is good but i was about to start talking folks ears off in comments, and i've had this conversation in discord a lot today already, but like. We know elon musk is a shitstain, but SpaceX is a successful company despite him, despite being a meat grinder for aerospace...

tinyurl.com

Based on preview, I'm not going to give them a click.

F9 used preexisting dormant NASA launch sites, is road transportable, and McGregor supports full duration static fire testing.

 

[Knightshade]

Based on preview, I'm not going to give them a click.

F9 used preexisting dormant NASA launch sites, is road transportable, and McGregor supports full duration static fire testing.

FWIW the actual post is a lot less... personal?

He goes into some history back to the 90s with Delta IV, how Boeings falures defined SpaceX's later success, and how that success was largely discarded during starship development.... the flaps and flame trench things already mentioned in this thread are just a couple of the points he raises.... he also suggests a lot of the experts that made Falcon so good are not the folks who have been working on Starship- specifically saying:

When Elon Musk built his team out in the wetlands of south texas, at a site that had originally only been slated to be a ground tracking station, then a potential falcon 9 launchsite at most, he brought almost nobody with him that worked on Falcon 9, or really, rockets or launchpads in general.

I haven't followed SpaceX personnel close enough (other than knowing Mueller backed off direct engine work like 7-8 years ago, went part time 4 years ago, and left entirely in 2020) to know what weight that claim holds (and if it doesn't perhaps his others don't either) but figured folks here might.

 

[mongo]

FWIW the actual post is a lot less... personal?

He goes into some history back to the 90s with Delta IV, how Boeings falures defined SpaceX's later success, and how that success was largely discarded during starship development.... the flaps and flame trench things already mentioned in this thread are just a couple of the points he raises.... he also suggests a lot of the experts that made Falcon so good are not the folks who have been working on Starship- specifically saying:



I haven't follows SpaceX personnel close enough to know what weight that claim holds (and if it doesn't perhaps his others don't either) but figured folks here might.

OK, I read it...
I'm not sure how geographic assignment matters in the time of same day private jet transport. Not that being on site is that critical for overall design.
Bica Chica timeline was ...
Ground prep started 2014
OLM construction proper started 2020ish

Engine failure mode isn't determined.

Starship is not overreaching on features, nor adding features for feature's sake, the additional operational modes are inherent in the base design.
Starship flaps are not akin the Shuttle wings
They did switch from transperational cooling to tiles
They did switch from carbon fiber to stainless steel
HLS is on Starship, but some potential alternates also rely on non-flown launch vehicles.

Like F9, Starship has:
Same tooling for both stage tanks
Same fuel for both stages
Same engine core on both stages

 

[Cosmacelf]

I think the reason for lack of flame diverter is obvious. There won’t be one on the moon or mars. So they are trying to see what they can do without one. Yeah, I know, Starship versus booster, but still. Same reason for autogeneous pressurization. No helium on mars.

 

[spacerfc]

"When Elon Musk built his team out in the wetlands of south texas, at a site that had originally only been slated to be a ground tracking station, then a potential falcon 9 launchsite at most, he brought almost nobody with him that worked on Falcon 9, or really, rockets or launchpads in general."

Why should we care about what some random clueless asshat said about Starship? Elon Musk ate people a million times more competent than him for breakfast.

And no, Boca Chica was never "originally only been slated to be a ground tracking station", when they started the EIS in 2012, the intention from the start is a launch site (for both Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy btw, not just "Falcon 9 at most"): Details Emerge on SpaceX’s Proposed Texas Launch Site

For various reasons they put the launch site on hold after finishing the EIS in 2014, then in 2016 they brought two tracking antennas (old NASA surplus) to Boca Chica to turn it into a tracking station: SpaceX to Bring 2 Ground Stations Antennas to RGV

 

[ecarfan]

Why should we care about what some random clueless asshat said about Starship?

YouTube is full of clueless idiots looking for clicks to try and make some money. Beats working, apparently.

Okay, let me rephrase; on YouTube there are many people who portray themselves as experts on a topic when in fact all they do is pick a high visibility subject (Musk, Tesla, SpaceX) and without doing any serious research throw together a video of their random thoughts and hope for clicks to try to make money.

 

[DanCar]

... a video of their random thoughts and hope for clicks to try to make money.

Like on social forums , people who post incorrect info get a lot of attention. I wonder if the same with youtube videos.

 

[ecarfan]

At least that is what they are assumed to be.

 

[mongo]

Kathy Lueders joins SpaceX to help develop Starship

https://twitter.com/x/status/1658127208932679681

 

[ecarfan]

Glad to see Kathy Leuders joining the SpaceX team, which will certainly benefit from her expertise!

S25 has been moved to the launch site and appears ready to be lifted onto the stand for cryo testing.

 

[ecarfan]

My mistake; that is the static fire test stand.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659215242617044993

 

[JB47394]

My mistake; that is the static fire test stand.

Yeah, propellant load and unload testing takes place at Massey's now.

 

[mongo]

Raptor vs water cooled steel plate

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659599720761950208

 

[ecarfan]

Raptor vs water cooled steel plate

Very cool.

Would love to see the data that came out of that test!

 

[JB47394]

Would love to see the data that came out of that test!

I want to see the simulation of the flows when 33 engines fire across the surface of a wide, flat metal plate with water being pumped into the interface. I can see how a trench directs the flow, avoiding overpressure problems. I can't see how a flat plate is going to manage to do the same. The whole "flat surface" flame handling is just so odd.

Also, I thought the test conditions were curious. The engine didn't seem to be firing at full power, but it was much closer to the plate than the engines will be for a launch. Perhaps the combination provided a way of creating the conditions at launch. Or perhaps I just misinterpreted what I saw.

 

[ecarfan]

The engine didn't seem to be firing at full power

I don’t think we can make that assessment based on that video.

 

[scaesare]

That was several kinds of awesome.

I do find the thrust flame interesting though.. it's not the well-formed purple stream with shock-diamonds we've seen from Raptor.

I suspect it may be the water stream firing almost directly in to the nozzle, but even once raptor starts firing, the exhaust immediately exiting t he nozzle (ostensibly before coming in to contact with water), is already orangish and less defined.

 

[mongo]

That was several kinds of awesome.

I do find the thrust flame interesting though.. it's not the well-formed purple stream with shock-diamonds we've seen from Raptor.

I suspect it may be the water stream firing almost directly in to the nozzle, but even once raptor starts firing, the exhaust immediately exiting t he nozzle (ostensibly before coming in to contact with water), is already orangish and less defined.

I think the camera was having issues. Flame impingement site was saturated white.
Reflected energy could mess up mach diamonds.
Also possible they went fuel/ film cooling rich.