Falcon Super Heavy/Starship - General Development Discussion

[HVM]

Any Thermal Protection System is dangerous if compromised.

Also active cooling is such high tech stuff, used in ICEs Tesla's battery packs inverters and motors, in my gaming PC...

 

[Grendal]

Elon is being very talkative on twitter about what is happening in Boca Chica with Starship/Starhopper.

Raptor discussion is happening.
SpaceX's Elon Musk: odds of Starship reaching orbit by 2020 are "rising rapidly"

 

[ecarfan]

He certainly is excited about the changes to the Super Heavy/Starship. I’m excited too, but skeptical; this is a radical design change and I don’t see how it cannot do anything but set back the development timeline. Which is of course fine if the end result is a better, more reliable, and safer vehicle. But Elon is famous for dramatically underestimating the challenges involved in development a completely new vehicle, whether it is an electric car or a rocket or a rocket with 3 first stages, or a...

Elon is being very talkative on twitter about what is happening in Boca Chica with Starship/Starhopper.

Raptor discussion is happening.
SpaceX's Elon Musk: odds of Starship reaching orbit by 2020 are "rising rapidly"

 

[Grendal]

I certainly can't argue about Elon's optimism getting the better of him. The fundamental core for the future advancements of SpaceX is the Raptor engine. That is going through some changes as well but even though Elon characterized them as "radical," the changes were apparently planned and they seem to fit within the similar sort of changes that happened with Merlin. Those significantly improved the design in every way. I think Elon pushed Raptor in a similar way. I think they've been testing the equivalent of the Raptor 1C and this will be the Raptor 1D. With an improved version of the Raptor then you have more margin for the ship and booster design to play with. So I'm thinking the most important piece of the puzzle is going to be as good as the Merlin is for the F9. This concept for the ship and booster feels a lot more simple in many ways. Working with massive scale carbon fiber that has never been done before seems a lot more risky than metals that are just improved version of what has been done before. So I am feeling more confident that we won't see design failures leading to RUDs in the testing phase. Failures, while an important learning lesson, would cause significant delays in getting real Starships and Falcon Super Heavies launching and carrying payloads sooner rather than later.

Mars or bust.

 

[HVM]

Another quick render:

; )

 

[N5329K]

Another quick render:View attachment 364351
; )

Hard to see how those canard surfaces will survive.
Robin

 

[HVM]

Speed brakes not canard(s).

 

[N5329K]

Speed brakes not canard(s).

They look like lifting surfaces rather than plain old speed brakes. If they were just speed brakes why not grid fins as you see in the first stage? And if they are speed brakes, the thermal load would be even greater, given they’d deploy against the atmospheric flow rather than faired with it. I’m sure someone has run the numbers and the materials will be selected accordingly. Just looks like a major design challenge for even heat-resistant exotics.
Robin

 

[ecarfan]

I believe that upthread there is an extensive discussion of the purpose and function of the side fins and the conclusion was they are not lifting surfaces (not that everyone agreed, of course ). Also, keep in mind that they have an adjustable trailing edge section, at least based on what Elon showed at the last IAC presentation he made.

 

[HVM]

Watch the SpX video it is there 41:00, and no exotics -STAINLESS STEEL +active cooling.

Elon:
"Stainless steel is correct, but different mixture of alloys & new architecture. Unlike Atlas, Starship is buckling stable on launchpad even when unpressurized. While there are some material similarities, Starship is very different from the Atlas design
----
Yup. Actually, the only significant design element in common with early Atlas is stainless steel & we’re using a different alloy mix. I super 300 Series Stainless!"

 

[N5329K]

I believe that upthread there is an extensive discussion of the purpose and function of the side fins and the conclusion was they are not lifting surfaces (not that everyone agreed, of course ). Also, keep in mind that they have an adjustable trailing edge section, at least based on what Elon showed at the last IAC presentation he made.

At the tail or at the nose? The ones aft do articulate (or did in one recent iteration). I’m curious about the ones at the nose.
Hot up there.
Robin

 

[Buckminster]

At the tail or at the nose? The ones aft do articulate (or did in one recent iteration). I’m curious about the ones at the nose.
Hot up there.
Robin

Looks from the video that only 2 at the base move. When I originally saw the "belly flop" graphics I thought - this is what you expect from Elon - of course it is cool. When watching it again - I thought that this is truly awesome and actually makes a lot of sense.

 

[HVM]

Looks from the video that only 2 at the base move...

Then you need to watch it again (hint it would not work that way), here is video same of control system in NASA wind tunnel test at 1959;
1:40
Tests of Reentry Vehicle Models

 

[Buckminster]

Okay - what am I missing? COG is central. Rear movable fins can be more or less air resistance than the top fixed fins. Third rear fin stops rotation. Cold thrusters could be used for manoeuvres out of the ordinary (falling like a stone..).

 

[ecarfan]

While I can see how this decision by SpaceX to move FSH/Starship production makes sense, it will require SpaceX to assemble a significant workforce at Boca Chica; that will require new housing and services for hundreds of people in a relatively remote area. Certainly this is a boost for the McAllen/Brownsville area, where living costs there are a small fraction of what they are in LA! And if I was a SpaceX employee who was part of the production team I would not hesitate to move and thereby be able to participate in what will likely be the most important engineering project of the 21st century.

In blow to Los Angeles, SpaceX is moving its Mars spaceship and booster work to Texas

QUOTE:
In a reversal of a deal local officials touted as a win for Los Angeles tech, SpaceX will no longer be developing and building its Mars spaceship and rocket booster system at the Port of Los Angeles. Instead, the work will be done in South Texas.

SpaceX said in a statement Wednesday that the decision was made to “streamline operations.”

“This decision does not impact our current manufacture, design, and launch operations in Hawthorne and Vandenberg Air Force Base,” a company spokesperson said in the statement. “Additionally, SpaceX will continue recovery operations of our reusable Falcon rockets and Dragon spacecraft at the Port of Los Angeles.”

 

[mongo]

While I can see how this decision by SpaceX to move FSH/Starship production makes sense, it will require SpaceX to assemble a significant workforce at Boca Chica; that will require new housing and services for hundreds of people in a relatively remote area. Certainly this is a boost for the McAllen/Brownsville area, where living costs there are a small fraction of what they are in LA! And if I was a SpaceX employee who was part of the production team I would not hesitate to move and thereby be able to participate in what will likely be the most important engineering project of the 21st century.

In blow to Los Angeles, SpaceX is moving its Mars spaceship and booster work to Texas

QUOTE:
In a reversal of a deal local officials touted as a win for Los Angeles tech, SpaceX will no longer be developing and building its Mars spaceship and rocket booster system at the Port of Los Angeles. Instead, the work will be done in South Texas.

SpaceX said in a statement Wednesday that the decision was made to “streamline operations.”

“This decision does not impact our current manufacture, design, and launch operations in Hawthorne and Vandenberg Air Force Base,” a company spokesperson said in the statement. “Additionally, SpaceX will continue recovery operations of our reusable Falcon rockets and Dragon spacecraft at the Port of Los Angeles.”

Article on original announcement:
SpaceX has a new lease at the Port of LA

Because SpaceX is developing the site on its own dime, the company will effectively be able to avoid rental payments for 20 years. After that, SpaceX will pay around $3 million per year for the site.

I'm curious what SpaceX's costs will be now.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Yes, interesting. The rationale for locating in Hawthorne was that as a startup, they needed to recruit talent locally, and there is a big aerospace industry there. Now that SpaceX is a big kahuna in the industry and is seen as a desirable place to work, they can probably pick and choose where to locate their offices and employees will relocate to them.

Given that Spacehopper testing needs to be in the middle of nowhere, it makes a lot of sense to locate the engineering staff there too for pure efficiency reasons. The fact that regulations, taxes, labor costs and land costs are all much more advantageous in Brownsville is just a bonus.

 

[Electroman]

It makes sense to keep the engineering staff and the production team, where the testing is done - especially at this stage of the game where they will be doing rapid prototyping and iterations.

 

[mongo]

Latest Tweet responding to Teslarati article (which references LA Time article): Elon Musk on Twitter

The source info is incorrect. Starship & Raptor development is being done out of our HQ in Hawthorne, CA. We are building the Starship prototypes locally at our launch site in Texas, as their size makes them very difficult to transport.

So, prototypes built on site, real deals still at Port of LA?

 

[mongo]

Further
Elon Musk on Twitter

The LA Times has a long track of unreasonable attacks on SpaceX & Tesla, but in this case it was our miscommunication

Elon Musk on Twitter

Teslarati is very thoughtful & well-written, but this stems from a miscommunication by SpaceX

full thread:
TESLARATI on Twitter

Teslarati to update their article shortly.