Ben W
Chess Grandmaster (Supervised)
There would also be a range of payload sizes for which the side boosters could be recovered but the center booster would be expendable (a la Space Shuttle).
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There would also be a range of payload sizes for which the side boosters could be recovered but the center booster would be expendable (a la Space Shuttle).
I imagine 5 choices from lightest to heaviest cargo:
1: All boosters return to launch pad.
2: Side boosters return to launch pad, central to drone ship.
3: All boosters to drone.
4: Side boosters to drone, central wasted.
5: All boosters wasted.
8000 kg to GTO might refer to 1)
Someone, either Elon or Gwynne, recently said they have built a full sized (which is different from the original full size) and were sending it to McGregor for testing.
Thanks for sharing that bit of really good news! Just how far and fast they have advanced rocket engine design the last 5 years is nothing sort of incredible IMO.
Has anyone seen information from SpaceX on when they estimate the first BFR (which Wikipedia shows as starting construction 3 - 6 months from now) will test launch? While Falcon Heavy completion has been pushed farther out many times, I'd speculate that we shouldn't expect similar delays from BFR program as it is a clean sheet of paper design, which FH was anything but.
That they began work on Raptor five years ago and it appears to be on track, is encouraging since it is the most critical and complex hardware needed for BFR.
Wikipedia:
Development work began in 2012 on the Raptor rocket engines which are to be used for both stages of the BFR launch vehicle, and engine testing began in 2016. New rocket engine designs are typically considered one of the longest of the development subprocesses for new launch vehicles and spacecraft. Tooling for the main tanks has been ordered and a facility to build the vehicles is under construction; construction of the first ship is scheduled to begin in the second quarter of 2018.[1] The company publicly stated an aspirational goal for initial Mars-bound cargo flights of BFR launching as early as 2022, followed by the first crewed BFR flight one synodic period later, in 2024.
That they began work on Raptor five years ago and it appears to be on track, is encouraging since it is the most critical and complex hardware needed for BFR.
Wikipedia:
Development work began in 2012 on the Raptor rocket engines which are to be used for both stages of the BFR launch vehicle, and engine testing began in 2016. New rocket engine designs are typically considered one of the longest of the development subprocesses for new launch vehicles and spacecraft. Tooling for the main tanks has been ordered and a facility to build the vehicles is under construction; construction of the first ship is scheduled to begin in the second quarter of 2018.[1] The company publicly stated an aspirational goal for initial Mars-bound cargo flights of BFR launching as early as 2022, followed by the first crewed BFR flight one synodic period later, in 2024.
You know what’s blowing my mind about this space tourism thing? We already have lots of competition. Bigelow, Virgin, Blue Origin. What a time to be alive. Seems that no matter how big or expensive or risky the project is, there will be money and entrepreneurs around to try it. Probably not in my lifetime, but my kids might see a privately funded generation starship...
In Elon’s 2017 IAC presentation he stated that BFR construction will begin “around the second quarter of next year” (2018). His “aspirational” goal is for the first mission to Mars in 2022. So it seems reasonable to believe that the goal for the first BFR test flight to LEO is around 2021. I don’t see how SpaceX could construct the first BFR in time for a 2020 test flight: that would mean building it from scratch in about two years. That just feels impossible to me, even for SpaceX, because in addition to building the vehicle the launch pad also needs to be constructed. I’m not convinced that the first BFR will launch from SLC-39A, as that pad is going to be busy with F9 and FH launches. I think the first BFR will launch from Boca Chica TX.
Almost the only solid information we have about the latest BFR plan is Elon’s presentation from four months ago. A transcript of his remarks is here http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/making_life_multiplanetary_transcript_2017.pdf
I find myself re-watching and re-reading that presentation on a regular basis. It is so compelling that I don’t tire of hearing it again.
Excellent article by Eric Berger about the FH at Forget the Falcon Heavy’s payload and focus on where the rocket will go which contains this interesting bit of information, quote:
“Musk has not yet said where the BFR, if it does move from the design stage into production, will be built. Autry* speculated that SpaceX might build the large rocket at the Port of Los Angeles to maximize its investment in West Coast labor and supply chains and have the rocket where it could be loaded onto a barge. Alternatively, Musk might curry political favor by building a factory in Alabama, Florida, or Texas or by using NASA’s existing Michoud Assembly Facility in southern Louisiana.”
* Greg Autry, who studies space entrepreneurship at the University of Southern California and is a former White House liaison to NASA.
Last year, just by chance I met a SpaceX employee who told me that the BFR would be built in a facility at the Port of LA. Based on his job title, I’m pretty sure that he would have accurate information about that. I’ve been waiting for SpaceX to reveal the location of the facility or for a SpaceX fan to discover it, but have not heard anything so far.
“Musk has not yet said where the BFR, if it does move from the design stage into production, will be built. Autry* speculated that SpaceX might build the large rocket at the Port of Los Angeles to maximize its investment in West Coast labor and supply chains and have the rocket where it could be loaded onto a barge. Alternatively, Musk might curry political favor by building a factory in Alabama, Florida, or Texas or by using NASA’s existing Michoud Assembly Facility in southern Louisiana.”
* Greg Autry, who studies space entrepreneurship at the University of Southern California and is a former White House liaison to NASA.
Last year, just by chance I met a SpaceX employee who told me that the BFR would be built in a facility at the Port of LA. Based on his job title, I’m pretty sure that he would have accurate information about that. I’ve been waiting for SpaceX to reveal the location of the facility or for a SpaceX fan to discover it, but have not heard anything so far.
SpaceX keeps their costs down, by a lot, simply because they can move F9 and FH rockets around the country by truck. That definitely won't happen with BFR. It's big. The Port of LA works because you can set the pieces on a ship and have it go through the Panama Canal and over to Florida for launch. But even that is a huge expense. The smartest move for SpaceX is build BFR where they will be launching and landing it. The negative to that is that most critical SpaceX employees for building rockets are in LA, not in Florida. So that does make the Port of LA a nice compromise even though expenses might be a little higher. We're very early in the game for BFR, so we'll see what actually happens in the coming years. Whatever happens, it will be a really big decision where they end up building the rocket. I can't see Hawthorne working at all for BFR except for all the smaller bits like Raptor engines.
If they get FAA approval, they could launch at Vandenburg the first time and land in Texas or Florida. Actually, with its capability, could the first stage go in reverse of typical orbital path over the Pacific, Asia, Atlantic to its home? With no payload in BFS of course.
Both of those are pretty unlikely. Launching Eastward from the West coast is over very populated areas which is very unlikely to be approved. Launching against the Earth's rotation is hard, doing single stage to orbit at all is very hard, especially with the dead weight of the BSF on top, so doing both is very probably not even close to possible.
Then there would be the problem of landing the BFR/BFS stack. I'm pretty doubtful that would work at all.
I was thinking they would still separate. Based on the city-city video the 2nd stage could get there, but the first I wasn't sure on.
Edit: it would not need to be orbital, just ballistic.
There is no port at Vandenburg where the BFR could be offloaded from the barge onto land and taken — uphill! — to a launch pad.
So the BFR will not be launching from VAFB.
Yeah, that would be an issue, if they can't truck ship to FL, they can't get it to VAFB...
So they would need to get their barge/crane/launch pad working...
Edit: custom cargo plane (50% larger diameter than current ones) this time with rocket tank equalization? Big falcon zepplin?
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Well, once they get BFR/BFS flying, they can land them at V'Burg if the next flight is from there. Of course from a polar orbit to get back to Cape Canaveral would be tricky, but it's certainly possible. The Shuttle regularly landed by overflying populated areas, and in fact, debris landed in such areas, so I don't know how the approvals for landings are done.
I'm doubtful about flying them to the initial launch point, but from there, it's a different story.
I'm doubtful about flying them to the initial launch point, but from there, it's a different story.
Empty 1. stage of BFR weights about 150 t. Antonov An-225 Mriya - Wikipedia can take 200 t external load. Cargo hold is 6.4 m (21 ft 0 in) wide. BFR stage would add lot of air resistance with rather large torque. Perhaps that's too much.Yeah, that would be an issue, if they can't truck ship to FL, they can't get it to VAFB...
So they would need to get their barge/crane/launch pad working...
Edit: custom cargo plane (50% larger diameter than current ones) this time with rocket tank equalization? Big falcon zepplin?
CargoLifter - Wikipedia was designed to carry 160 t. Perhaps SpaceX could buy them...
Well...there is a pad of some sort down around the corner from SLC6. I’ve never driven down there so I don’t know what it actually looks like but I’m sure spacex could figure out how to offload a barge in fair seas.
But, from the use case perspective I agree that it’s unlikely BFR will launch from vandenberg, and especially if FH is a viable [if not less efficient] option.
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