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False BMW claims
- Thread starter andrew kelsey
- Start date
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- Electric Vehicles
Hate to tell you, but the i3 is not yet available in the UK or Japan either (or anywhere else for that matter). The Model S will be shipping in the UK and Japan before the i3 is shipping in the US.
tommolog
Member
BEV starts at $41,350. With the range extender it's $45,200
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The i3 isn't available anywhere yet. It will launch in most European markets on November 16th and come to the US the Spring. It's looking like March/April.
Regardless, I'm inquiring on my own, mostly because I believe you claims are patently false.
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Reservation w/o a deposit? "Significant number"? How much is the deposit? Can't find it and it is not posted anywhere so I would say bollocks.
I hope it does well, but c'mon, they've totally uglified it from prototype to production. Not as bad as the Volt went from sporty coupe to 4 door sedan, but still; let's see how many are actually sold.
30k reservations is laugable, 100k is loony bin crazy.
Tesla could only muster around 20k reservations before the car was built, and we don't know how many committed since that info is private. That was for a real car that started at $50k.
There is no way that a mediocre 2nd car that starts at $41k, is going to sell more. This is all hype.
Tesla could only muster around 20k reservations before the car was built, and we don't know how many committed since that info is private. That was for a real car that started at $50k.
There is no way that a mediocre 2nd car that starts at $41k, is going to sell more. This is all hype.
For context, here is the history of the Nissan Leaf reservation list in world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Markets_and_sales
USA reservations pasted below...
USA reservations pasted below...
Honestly, I think 30.000 orders is actually not that much.
The car is priced below 40.000 euro here in germany with a very advanced Navi System Standard.
At this price point the car is by far the most attractive electric car here. There are others like the VW E-up, Renault Zoe or Nissan Leaf in a similar or lower price range. Yet none of these cars can really compete with the i3.
The Model S is simply a lot more expensive and does therefore apply to a very different type of customer.
The car is priced below 40.000 euro here in germany with a very advanced Navi System Standard.
At this price point the car is by far the most attractive electric car here. There are others like the VW E-up, Renault Zoe or Nissan Leaf in a similar or lower price range. Yet none of these cars can really compete with the i3.
The Model S is simply a lot more expensive and does therefore apply to a very different type of customer.
gnelson
Member
It may be popular in Germany, but I don't have the impression that it's popular here. The BMW i-section of the biggest electric car forum here is eerily quiet, with a new post every few days (currently the last post was made on September 3rd). The Tesla-section has activity in dozens of *threads* every day, and the Leaf- and Mitsubishi i-sections also have steady activity every day. Now, some of the discussions might be going on at BMW forums and the like, but the BMW crowd doesn't strike me as most enthusiastic about EVs. Here, if the BMW i3 gets sales in the area of 10% of the Leaf, I'm thinking they should be quite pleased with that.
BMW finally got back to me regarding how someone in the UK could pre-order/reserve an i3. The short summary is YMMV and it seems that potential EV owners could be put through the dealer quantlet to get this car. Bolding/underline is mine.
I have now received a reply from the Advertising Standards Authority, which it seems is a lion with no teeth! See Below:
I'm very disappointed and will be replying to them shortly.
Dear Mr Kelsey,
Your complaint about BMW (UK) Ltd
Thank you for contacting the Advertising Standards Authority. I should explain that the ASA can assess the content of advertisements and whether they are likely to breach the CAP and BCAP advertising Codes by, for example, being likely to cause significant harm, materially mislead or provoke widespread offence. Our main sanction, as non-statutory regulator of advertising in the UK, lies in ensuring that material deemed to breach the advertising Codes is either removed or amended.
We have viewed the ad you refer to and considered the issue you raise in terms of the CAP advertising Code but do not consider that there is likely to be a case to answer on this occasion. While we appreciate your point, the claim seems likely to refer to the fact that this is the first all-electric (or plug-in range-extender) vehicle to be specifically designed as such to be put on general sale, by what would generally be understood to be an established ‘premium’ manufacturer (this obviously being still a somewhat subjective definition, even in the car industry). As you say, Tesla’s Model S is likely to be seen as a competitor to established large premium or luxury cars, when it goes on sale in the UK. However Tesla, having previously only previously produced the comparatively niche Roadster is unlikely to be generally understood at this time to be an established manufacturer of premium vehicles.
It is sometimes the case that comparative claims such as this are the subject of complaint by competitors, who feel that their products have been unfairly representatives. We would consider each complaint on its own merit but, at this time, we do not consider that there are grounds to suppose that BMW’s claim concerning the i3 is likely to materially mislead consumers about the car’s significance or precedent. Consequently, we do not propose to take further action.
Thank you, nonetheless, for taking the time and trouble to contact us with your concerns; the ASA website, www.asa.org.uk, contains more information about the work we do, including the results of investigations into complaints.
Kind regards
Sam Wilson
Complaints Executive
Direct line 020 7492 2172
Advertising Standards Authority
Mid City Place, 71 High Holborn
London WC1V 6QT
Telephone 020 7492 2222
www.asa.org.uk
Follow us on twitter: @ASA_UK
Legal, decent, honest and truthful
The Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) and the Advertising Standards Authority (Broadcast) Ltd will use the information you have given us to deal with your complaint. If your complaint falls under the remit of a different regulatory body, we will normally pass it on to that body. If you are seeking suppression from an advertiser’s database or have not received goods or a refund, we will pass the details of your complaint to the advertiser so it can take action.
We would like you to be available to take part in the ASA’s customer satisfaction research. On our behalf, an independent research company contacts complainants by email. If you did not opt-out when completing our online complaint form, or made your complaint in writing or by phone and do NOT want to participate in this research please email[email protected] or write to Advertising Standards Authority, Freepost LON20659, LONDON, WC1V 6BR. We will not contact you for marketing purposes unless you have given us permission to do so. You can register on our website for communications you would like to receive from us, and can amend your choices at any time. We will not sell, rent or exchange your details with any other organisation. Our full Privacy Policy can be found at www.asa.org.uk
The Advertising Standards Authority Ltd, Registered Number 0733214
The Advertising Standards Authority (Broadcast) Ltd, Registered Number 5130991
The Committee of Advertising Practice Ltd, Registered Number 8310744
The Broadcast Committee of Advertising Practice Ltd, Registered Number 5126412
Registered Office: Mid City Place, 71 High Holborn, London, WC1V 6QT
The information contained in this electronic correspondence and any files transmitted with it is intended for the addressee only and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee please delete this message and notify the sender; you should not copy or distribute this message or disclose its contents to anyone.
An anti-virus system is in operation and our systems are regularly scanned for known viruses. ASA/CAP accepts no responsibility for any subsequent viruses attached.
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Dear Mr Wilson,
Thank you for taking the trouble to reply, but I cannot say that I agree with you. Whilst Tesla may well not be an 'established' premium car manufacturer, they certainly are a premium car manufacturer. Since they are a newish company, only recently established it is a matter of semantics and all turns on the meaning of the word 'established'. They are certainly not long established. However, all of this is irrelevant since BMW do not make use of the caveat and simply make a false claim. If we are going to allow established manufacturers to lie in their advertisements I cannot see the point of having an advertising standards authority at all. Surely the whole point is that what is claimed should be the truth and it certainly isn't. I am very disappointed that you obviously feel that this is unimportant. Tesla are a very serious new company making an undoubtedly premium product (accepted as such by all independent commentators) that could and should legitimately claim what BMW are claiming. If it ever gets to a court of law BMW will be forced to back down. Surely one point of having a regulatory body is to avoid unnecessary legal battles by ensuring that only legal, decent, honest and truthful claims are made. BMW are lying and they know they are lying. They obviously believe that they have every chance of getting away with it and you seem to be encouraging them in that view. I will forward copies of our correspondence to Tesla and perhaps they will see fit to take BMW to task themselves.
What you seem to be suggesting is that because most people have not yet heard of Tesla and are therefore unaware that BMW's claim is misleading then it is acceptable for BMW to make the false claim since no offence will be given. This seems, if I may say so, to be a very 'Alice in Wonderland' sort of logic. Of course new and innovative products from new and innovative manufacturers will not be widely known in the early years but surely this is exactly when they need protection from established manufacturers looking to defend their existing markets. Otherwise how will new and innovative manufacturers ever get their new products off the ground? Competition is one thing but false and unfair claims are quite another.
BMW could legitimately claim to be the first premium manufacturer to sell an EV 'in the UK'. If we do not consider Vauxhall to be a 'premium' manufacturer then they could also claim to be the first to offer a premium range-extender EV 'in the UK'. Not in the USA however, where Fisker were the first premium manufacturer with this technology, assuming that we do not consider the Chevy Volt to be a premium product, in which case it would have a prior claim. This may be complicated but it isn't rocket science. Words have a meaning and advertisers have a duty to use them carefully.
Looking at your remit as stated in your letter, I can see that BMW's claim is unlikely to cause significant harm or provoke widespread offence but it will definitely materially mislead the public. Anyone considering purchasing the new BMW may well be influenced by the false claim. Worse still Tesla will find it difficult after BMW's advertising campaign to claim exactly the same as was falsely claimed by BMW. This might well affect Tesla sales adversely.
I hope you will reconsider your conclusion and ask BMW to be more truthful. There are plenty of truthful claims they can make, the simplest of these being to change 'world's first' to 'Britain's first'. I would then have no complaint and nor should Tesla.
Yours sincerely,
Andrew Kelsey
Sent from my iPad
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I would like to forward this correspondence with the ASA to Tesla. Does anybody here know of a suitable e-mail address that will ensure that it comes to Elon's attention? It may well be that just posting it here is enough but they are busy people and it would be a shame if they were unaware of the false claim BMW is making. Thanks.
I'm very disappointed and will be replying to them shortly.
Dear Mr Kelsey,
Your complaint about BMW (UK) Ltd
Thank you for contacting the Advertising Standards Authority. I should explain that the ASA can assess the content of advertisements and whether they are likely to breach the CAP and BCAP advertising Codes by, for example, being likely to cause significant harm, materially mislead or provoke widespread offence. Our main sanction, as non-statutory regulator of advertising in the UK, lies in ensuring that material deemed to breach the advertising Codes is either removed or amended.
We have viewed the ad you refer to and considered the issue you raise in terms of the CAP advertising Code but do not consider that there is likely to be a case to answer on this occasion. While we appreciate your point, the claim seems likely to refer to the fact that this is the first all-electric (or plug-in range-extender) vehicle to be specifically designed as such to be put on general sale, by what would generally be understood to be an established ‘premium’ manufacturer (this obviously being still a somewhat subjective definition, even in the car industry). As you say, Tesla’s Model S is likely to be seen as a competitor to established large premium or luxury cars, when it goes on sale in the UK. However Tesla, having previously only previously produced the comparatively niche Roadster is unlikely to be generally understood at this time to be an established manufacturer of premium vehicles.
It is sometimes the case that comparative claims such as this are the subject of complaint by competitors, who feel that their products have been unfairly representatives. We would consider each complaint on its own merit but, at this time, we do not consider that there are grounds to suppose that BMW’s claim concerning the i3 is likely to materially mislead consumers about the car’s significance or precedent. Consequently, we do not propose to take further action.
Thank you, nonetheless, for taking the time and trouble to contact us with your concerns; the ASA website, www.asa.org.uk, contains more information about the work we do, including the results of investigations into complaints.
Kind regards
Sam Wilson
Complaints Executive
Direct line 020 7492 2172
Advertising Standards Authority
Mid City Place, 71 High Holborn
London WC1V 6QT
Telephone 020 7492 2222
www.asa.org.uk
Follow us on twitter: @ASA_UK
Legal, decent, honest and truthful
The Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) and the Advertising Standards Authority (Broadcast) Ltd will use the information you have given us to deal with your complaint. If your complaint falls under the remit of a different regulatory body, we will normally pass it on to that body. If you are seeking suppression from an advertiser’s database or have not received goods or a refund, we will pass the details of your complaint to the advertiser so it can take action.
We would like you to be available to take part in the ASA’s customer satisfaction research. On our behalf, an independent research company contacts complainants by email. If you did not opt-out when completing our online complaint form, or made your complaint in writing or by phone and do NOT want to participate in this research please email[email protected] or write to Advertising Standards Authority, Freepost LON20659, LONDON, WC1V 6BR. We will not contact you for marketing purposes unless you have given us permission to do so. You can register on our website for communications you would like to receive from us, and can amend your choices at any time. We will not sell, rent or exchange your details with any other organisation. Our full Privacy Policy can be found at www.asa.org.uk
The Advertising Standards Authority Ltd, Registered Number 0733214
The Advertising Standards Authority (Broadcast) Ltd, Registered Number 5130991
The Committee of Advertising Practice Ltd, Registered Number 8310744
The Broadcast Committee of Advertising Practice Ltd, Registered Number 5126412
Registered Office: Mid City Place, 71 High Holborn, London, WC1V 6QT
The information contained in this electronic correspondence and any files transmitted with it is intended for the addressee only and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee please delete this message and notify the sender; you should not copy or distribute this message or disclose its contents to anyone.
An anti-virus system is in operation and our systems are regularly scanned for known viruses. ASA/CAP accepts no responsibility for any subsequent viruses attached.
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Dear Mr Wilson,
Thank you for taking the trouble to reply, but I cannot say that I agree with you. Whilst Tesla may well not be an 'established' premium car manufacturer, they certainly are a premium car manufacturer. Since they are a newish company, only recently established it is a matter of semantics and all turns on the meaning of the word 'established'. They are certainly not long established. However, all of this is irrelevant since BMW do not make use of the caveat and simply make a false claim. If we are going to allow established manufacturers to lie in their advertisements I cannot see the point of having an advertising standards authority at all. Surely the whole point is that what is claimed should be the truth and it certainly isn't. I am very disappointed that you obviously feel that this is unimportant. Tesla are a very serious new company making an undoubtedly premium product (accepted as such by all independent commentators) that could and should legitimately claim what BMW are claiming. If it ever gets to a court of law BMW will be forced to back down. Surely one point of having a regulatory body is to avoid unnecessary legal battles by ensuring that only legal, decent, honest and truthful claims are made. BMW are lying and they know they are lying. They obviously believe that they have every chance of getting away with it and you seem to be encouraging them in that view. I will forward copies of our correspondence to Tesla and perhaps they will see fit to take BMW to task themselves.
What you seem to be suggesting is that because most people have not yet heard of Tesla and are therefore unaware that BMW's claim is misleading then it is acceptable for BMW to make the false claim since no offence will be given. This seems, if I may say so, to be a very 'Alice in Wonderland' sort of logic. Of course new and innovative products from new and innovative manufacturers will not be widely known in the early years but surely this is exactly when they need protection from established manufacturers looking to defend their existing markets. Otherwise how will new and innovative manufacturers ever get their new products off the ground? Competition is one thing but false and unfair claims are quite another.
BMW could legitimately claim to be the first premium manufacturer to sell an EV 'in the UK'. If we do not consider Vauxhall to be a 'premium' manufacturer then they could also claim to be the first to offer a premium range-extender EV 'in the UK'. Not in the USA however, where Fisker were the first premium manufacturer with this technology, assuming that we do not consider the Chevy Volt to be a premium product, in which case it would have a prior claim. This may be complicated but it isn't rocket science. Words have a meaning and advertisers have a duty to use them carefully.
Looking at your remit as stated in your letter, I can see that BMW's claim is unlikely to cause significant harm or provoke widespread offence but it will definitely materially mislead the public. Anyone considering purchasing the new BMW may well be influenced by the false claim. Worse still Tesla will find it difficult after BMW's advertising campaign to claim exactly the same as was falsely claimed by BMW. This might well affect Tesla sales adversely.
I hope you will reconsider your conclusion and ask BMW to be more truthful. There are plenty of truthful claims they can make, the simplest of these being to change 'world's first' to 'Britain's first'. I would then have no complaint and nor should Tesla.
Yours sincerely,
Andrew Kelsey
Sent from my iPad
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I would like to forward this correspondence with the ASA to Tesla. Does anybody here know of a suitable e-mail address that will ensure that it comes to Elon's attention? It may well be that just posting it here is enough but they are busy people and it would be a shame if they were unaware of the false claim BMW is making. Thanks.
I appreciate the Top Gear based humour brianman but things aren't quite that bad here. The ASA is a serious organisation but it seems that they aren't taking this particular complaint very seriously. I'll keep on at them and see if I can persuade them to change their minds. If I had an address that would reach Elon I could just leave it to Tesla. It's really none of my business but I don't like to see advertisers getting away with lying. I think Tesla's lawyers would be taken a lot more seriously than just one individual in the UK who is irritated by this.
bareyb
Active Member
I have now a had a slightly more promising further response from the ASA as follows:
Dear Mr Kelsey,
Thank you for your email, I’m sorry you were disappointed with my response. I will reopen the file on your complaint and put the issue you raise before the independent ASA Council, who act as final arbiters of the advertising Codes the ASA administers.
Either one of my colleagues or I will write again with information about Council’s decision in due course (please note the new reference number in the subject line above).
Thank you for your patience in the meantime.
Kind regards
Sam Wilson
Complaints Executive
Direct line 020 7492 2172
Advertising Standards Authority
Mid City Place, 71 High Holborn
London WC1V 6QT
Telephone 020 7492 2222
Dear Mr Kelsey,
Thank you for your email, I’m sorry you were disappointed with my response. I will reopen the file on your complaint and put the issue you raise before the independent ASA Council, who act as final arbiters of the advertising Codes the ASA administers.
Either one of my colleagues or I will write again with information about Council’s decision in due course (please note the new reference number in the subject line above).
Thank you for your patience in the meantime.
Kind regards
Sam Wilson
Complaints Executive
Direct line 020 7492 2172
Advertising Standards Authority
Mid City Place, 71 High Holborn
London WC1V 6QT
Telephone 020 7492 2222
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