False FSD Strikes?

[sleepydoc]

So I got another strike on FSD this morning. That makes 3 (of 5). The first one happened while I was concentrating on a turn that FSD was making and didn't notice the beeping, so technically my fault but it's hard to tug on the steering wheel without disengaging when it's turning and jerking back and forth trying to figure out the trajectory.

In the strike this morning, I had just tugged on the wheel to stop the glowing blue screen a few seconds earlier and was alternately looking at the road and the screen to see if the car recognized a pedestrian. Without any warning the red wheel of death appears and tells me I'm in time out for getting my 3rd strike. There were no beeps at all and my hand was actually on the wheel. When I had placed down at the screen it wasn't glowing blue, either (although I can't guarantee it didn't start glowing blue since I was looking forward when it alarmed.) I had a similar episode a month ago - FSD timeout with no warning whatsoever.

So my questions is this - how do I proceed? For now I've quit using FSD but what's the point of being in the beta test program if I can't use it and test it? Even though I'm philosophically opposed to disabling safety systems, I'm actually tempted to get a weight for the wheel because the system is so unreliable. It's also frustrating that there's no way to report this to Tesla.

 

[diplomat33]

So I got another strike on FSD this morning. That makes 3 (of 5). The first one happened while I was concentrating on a turn that FSD was making and didn't notice the beeping, so technically my fault but it's hard to tug on the steering wheel without disengaging when it's turning and jerking back and forth trying to figure out the trajectory.

You should be applying some torque on the steering BEFORE making the turn. That way, you satisfy the hands on wheel requirement and you won't need to tug the wheel during the turn which is hard to do.

In the strike this morning, I had just tugged on the wheel to stop the glowing blue screen a few seconds earlier and was alternately looking at the road and the screen to see if the car recognized a pedestrian. Without any warning the red wheel of death appears and tells me I'm in time out for getting my 3rd strike. There were no beeps at all and my hand was actually on the wheel. When I had placed down at the screen it wasn't glowing blue, either (although I can't guarantee it didn't start glowing blue since I was looking forward when it alarmed.) I had a similar episode a month ago - FSD timeout with no warning whatsoever.

You should always keep your eyes on the road. Don't try to look at the screen to see if the car is visualizing things right. When you look at the screen, the system will count that as you not paying attention and you will get a warning. Second, you should always be putting a little torque on the wheel to satisfy the hands on wheel requirement. If you are getting the blue screen, it means you have already been ignoring several nags to keep your hands on the wheel. Basically, it sounds like you are not satisfying the driver attention requirements so you are getting strikes against you. Keep your hands on the wheel, apply gentle torque and keep your eyes on the road.

 

[Supcom]

You should be applying some torque on the steering BEFORE making the turn. That way, you satisfy the hands on wheel requirement and you won't need to tug the wheel during the turn which is hard to do.



You should always keep your eyes on the road. Don't try to look at the screen to see if the car is visualizing things right. When you look at the screen, the system will count that as you not paying attention and you will get a warning. Second, you should always be putting a little torque on the wheel to satisfy the hands on wheel requirement. If you are getting the blue screen, it means you have already been ignoring several nags to keep your hands on the wheel. Basically, it sounds like you are not satisfying the driver attention requirements so you are getting strikes against you. Keep your hands on the wheel, apply gentle torque and keep your eyes on the road.

In all fairness, occasionally, my car stops recognizing wheel input and start nagging with no amount of tugging effective. I've learned to simply disengage FSD and reengage it. That always clears up the problem. Hard to do that in the middle of a turn though!

 

[sleepydoc]

You should be applying some torque on the steering BEFORE making the turn. That way, you satisfy the hands on wheel requirement and you won't need to tug the wheel during the turn which is hard to do.



You should always keep your eyes on the road. Don't try to look at the screen to see if the car is visualizing things right. When you look at the screen, the system will count that as you not paying attention and you will get a warning. Second, you should always be putting a little torque on the wheel to satisfy the hands on wheel requirement. If you are getting the blue screen, it means you have already been ignoring several nags to keep your hands on the wheel. Basically, it sounds like you are not satisfying the driver attention requirements so you are getting strikes against you. Keep your hands on the wheel, apply gentle torque and keep your eyes on the road.

I glanced at the screen, no more than I would glance down to look at the speed. Otherwise my eyes were on the road.

As I said, my hand was on the wheel and I was looking at the road. how does that violate the attention requirements? I find it very difficult to keep constant torque on the wheel without disengaging and nowhere does it say you have to constantly put torque on the wheel.

As far as 'ignoring several nags' that is not true. After about 10 seconds a small notice comes up at the bottom of the screen (which is very difficult to see if your eyes are on the road.) A few seconds after that the screen starts to glow blue, increasing in frequency for about 10 seconds or so, then you get a series of beeps. If I get the glue screen I've missed the small notice at the bottom which you say I shouldn't be looking at anyway because I should have my eyes on the road.

 

[diplomat33]

As I said, my hand was on the wheel and I was looking at the road. how does that violate the attention requirements? I find it very difficult to keep constant torque on the wheel without disengaging and nowhere does it say you have to constantly put torque on the wheel.

It is about torque. if you hold the wheel with both hands on either side of the wheel, you probably won't be applying any net torque (each hand cancels the other hand out) and you will get nags. I've found the best way to satisfy the nag is to hold the wheel with only one hand on one side, then your hand will naturally apply a little torque without having to actually tug on the wheel. Often, I will keep one hand at the 6 o'clock position and do a gentle side by side tug when the nag on the screen comes on.

As far as 'ignoring several nags' that is not true. After about 10 seconds a small notice comes up at the bottom of the screen (which is very difficult to see if your eyes are on the road.) A few seconds after that the screen starts to glow blue, increasing in frequency for about 10 seconds or so, then you get a series of beeps. If I get the glue screen I've missed the small notice at the bottom which you say I shouldn't be looking at anyway because I should have my eyes on the road.

I can see the small notice at the bottom of the screen in my peripheral vision without needing to take my eyes off the road. If I do get the blue screen, I just do a gentle side by side tug on the wheel. I make sure to do the gentle tug right BEFORE turns to make sure I don't get the nag during the turn.

 

[BobbyTables]

So that we all better understand the conditions:

Are you wearing sunglasses or a hat?

Is this in a car with a passenger facing camera? If so, and if it was at nigh, is it one of the newer cars with a driver illuminating IR light?

 

[EVNow]

If the torque doesn’t work - try the little wheels to change volume / speed.

 

[Dewg]

It is about torque. if you hold the wheel with both hands on either side of the wheel, you probably won't be applying any net torque (each hand cancels the other hand out) and you will get nags. I've found the best way to satisfy the nag is to hold the wheel with only one hand on one side, then your hand will naturally apply a little torque without having to actually tug on the wheel. Often, I will keep one hand at the 6 o'clock position and do a gentle side by side tug when the nag on the screen comes on.

This is exactly how I drive - my left hand at about 8 o'clock, and gravity pulling it down a little. I rarely get nagged. The only time I release my grip is when the car is going to perform a maneuver, so I let go a little and let the wheel move in my hand(s), then re-grip when the action is finished.

 

[Supcom]

Seems to be lots of reports of false FSD strikes with this version. If this keeps up, maybe Tesla will do another reset in the next release.

 

[sleepydoc]

So that we all better understand the conditions:

Are you wearing sunglasses or a hat?

Is this in a car with a passenger facing camera? If so, and if it was at nigh, is it one of the newer cars with a driver illuminating IR light?

just after 6 AM, wearing sunglasses as I was driving in to the morning sun. Driving on a straight road, looking straight ahead when the alarm happened.

 

[sleepydoc]

It is about torque. if you hold the wheel with both hands on either side of the wheel, you probably won't be applying any net torque (each hand cancels the other hand out) and you will get nags. I've found the best way to satisfy the nag is to hold the wheel with only one hand on one side, then your hand will naturally apply a little torque without having to actually tug on the wheel. Often, I will keep one hand at the 6 o'clock position and do a gentle side by side tug when the nag on the screen comes on.



I can see the small notice at the bottom of the screen in my peripheral vision without needing to take my eyes off the road. If I do get the blue screen, I just do a gentle side by side tug on the wheel. I make sure to do the gentle tug right BEFORE turns to make sure I don't get the nag during the turn.

Yes, that's the problem. torque does not equal attention. It's the input Tesla has chosen to try and approximate attention. I've tried various techniques to consistently apply torque and haven't found anything that works consistently for me. If Tesla would actually measure weight on the steering column, then I'd be fine, but even that doesn't work, since if you're holding on to the steering column when it turns you will cause a disengagement.

I was actually doing what you suggest - holding on with one hand and intermittently tugging with with it. The strike happened less than 10 seconds after I had applied torque to the wheel which is exactly my question - what the hell am I supposed to do to avoid this?

I'll also not that If I have my right hand on the wheel then it comply obstructs the bottom of the screen where the initial notice appears - one of the many fails of the bleeping v11 interface.

 

[Nosken]

Yes, that's the problem. torque does not equal attention. It's the input Tesla has chosen to try and approximate attention. I've tried various techniques to consistently apply torque and haven't found anything that works consistently for me. If Tesla would actually measure weight on the steering column, then I'd be fine, but even that doesn't work, since if you're holding on to the steering column when it turns you will cause a disengagement.

I was actually doing what you suggest - holding on with one hand and intermittently tugging with with it. The strike happened less than 10 seconds after I had applied torque to the wheel which is exactly my question - what the hell am I supposed to do to avoid this?

I'll also not that If I have my right hand on the wheel then it comply obstructs the bottom of the screen where the initial notice appears - one of the many fails of the bleeping v11 interface.

I don't have FSD Beta-But regular FSD. Don't know if this works in FSD Beta, but in regular, FSD/Autopilot you can simply adjust the audio volume with the left scroll wheel, and it will extinguish the nag.

 

[diplomat33]

Yes, that's the problem. torque does not equal attention. It's the input Tesla has chosen to try and approximate attention. I've tried various techniques to consistently apply torque and haven't found anything that works consistently for me. If Tesla would actually measure weight on the steering column, then I'd be fine, but even that doesn't work, since if you're holding on to the steering column when it turns you will cause a disengagement.

I was actually doing what you suggest - holding on with one hand and intermittently tugging with with it. The strike happened less than 10 seconds after I had applied torque to the wheel which is exactly my question - what the hell am I supposed to do to avoid this?

I'll also not that If I have my right hand on the wheel then it comply obstructs the bottom of the screen where the initial notice appears - one of the many fails of the bleeping v11 interface.

Try @EVNow suggestion of using the scroll wheels. They also work to dismiss the nag. I use the left scroll wheel and just turn it up or down one notch. It works great to dismiss the nag. That way you don't have to do the tug.

But generally, I agree with you that Tesla's driver attention system sucks. It forces drivers to learn new skills that have nothing to do with driving and can feel very unnatural. That's why I believe a real camera based driver monitoring system like what other automakers use, would be far superior. It would do a better job of monitoring driver attention while allowing true hands-free.

 

[Twiglett]

personally I feel much safer always applying just enough torque to "feel" what AP or FSDb is doing.
Must be said, even more so with FSDb, by always knowing what its up to none of the crazy situations I've read here have ever come close to happening to me.
I realized its more like managing FSDb than driving

 

[azred]

Try @EVNow suggestion of using the scroll wheels. They also work to dismiss the nag. I use the left scroll wheel and just turn it up or down one notch. It works great to dismiss the nag. That way you don't have to do the tug.

But generally, I agree with you that Tesla's driver attention system sucks. It forces drivers to learn new skills that have nothing to do with driving and can feel very unnatural. That's why I believe a real camera based driver monitoring system like what other automakers use, would be far superior. It would do a better job of monitoring driver attention while allowing true hands-free.

Totally agree with cameras approach as constantly lightly pushing/tugging on the wheel is unnatural. I imagine Tesla may go in the camera direction but my “old” S of course doesn’t have an interior camera. So my 3 someday may only require eyes on the road while my S requires tugging on the wheel. That would be pretty bizarre. (I get mixed up enough with the opposing stalks to initiate AP/FSD on my S vs my 3. That was another wonderful design decision.)

 

[Ramphex]

The best part is, before you had to play whack-a-mole with the steering wheel torque, now you need to play another game with the Cabin Camera, so that’s two games to play while trying to drive the damn car on straight flat roads of Florida.

At this point it’s honestly just too much of an annoyance, easier to just drive manually by holding the steering yoke in one spot going straight and not worrying about the pay attention nag… “I can’t pay attention anymore, I’m already paying attention”

 

[hugh_jassol]

Here's the part that I find somewhat interesting... There are some (like me) who have had FSD since 2018 on two different M3s - never have an issue with the nag, never got an autopilot strike, etc. I wear hats, sunglasses (polarized and not), neither etc. Both cars were opted in to the beta with cabin monitoring, etc.

Then there are those who have issues so bad it's unusable: Strikes while looking straight ahead with both hands on the wheel, strikes with zero warning, etc.

How can both be true? Is it difference in driving styles? Is it a random badly calibrated cameras? Is it Tesla doing A/B testing on different versions of the software? is it like holding your phone in one hand on speakerphone and thinking that this complies with the no-phone-use-in-cars laws? The person thinks they are law-abiding, but really aren't?

 

[Ramphex]

Here's the part that I find somewhat interesting... There are some (like me) who have had FSD since 2018 on two different M3s - never have an issue with the nag, never got an autopilot strike, etc. I wear hats, sunglasses (polarized and not), neither etc. Both cars were opted in to the beta with cabin monitoring, etc.

Then there are those who have issues so bad it's unusable: Strikes while looking straight ahead with both hands on the wheel, strikes with zero warning, etc.

How can both be true? Is it difference in driving styles? Is it a random badly calibrated cameras? Is it Tesla doing A/B testing on different versions of the software? is it like holding your phone in one hand on speakerphone and thinking that this complies with the no-phone-use-in-cars laws? The person thinks they are law-abiding, but really aren't?

I know originally there were couple of different beta revisions, one being for the refresh cars (assuming it’s computer related) and one for older models, so I’m wondering if there are lingering issues with them having to write code for different computers and vehicles.

 

[hugh_jassol]

I know originally there were couple of different beta revisions, one being for the refresh cars (assuming it’s computer related) and one for older models, so I’m wondering if there are lingering issues with them having to write code for different computers and vehicles.

Does your S have the new in-cabin camera with the IR illuminator on it?

 

[Supcom]

Then there are those who have issues so bad it's unusable: Strikes while looking straight ahead with both hands on the wheel, strikes with zero warning, etc.

How can both be true? Is it difference in driving styles? Is it a random badly calibrated cameras? Is it Tesla doing A/B testing on different versions of the software? is it like holding your phone in one hand on speakerphone and thinking that this complies with the no-phone-use-in-cars laws? The person thinks they are law-abiding, but really aren't?

It is likely that the face/eye tracking software is not equally proficient for all faces. Variations in head height, skin color, hair, eyes, etc. might cause false tracking results.

It would be curious to know if anyone who drives multiple Teslas of the same type experiences dissimilar eye tracking performance between cars.