False FSD Strikes?

[sleepydoc]

Any other warnings on that drive? If not, seems like a too strict strike. Anyway no video so hard to know what happened.

I'd been driving for 1.5-2 hours at that point, entirely on autopilot, so yeah, there were plenty. I think up to that point I might have had an actual audio warning once and several times when it started flashing blue because I wasn't putting enough pressure on the steering wheel, nothing remarkable, excessive or repetitive. And yes, that's my point - it gives you a strike with no warning and afterwards simply says 'telemetry data indicated improper use.' No description of what the 'improper use' was.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I'd been driving for 1.5-2 hours at that point, entirely on autopilot, so yeah, there were plenty. I think up to that point I might have had an actual audio warning once and several times when it started flashing blue because I wasn't putting enough pressure on the steering wheel, nothing remarkable, excessive or repetitive. And yes, that's my point - it gives you a strike with no warning and afterwards simply says 'telemetry data indicated improper use.' No description of what the 'improper use' was.

Yeah, I would suspect you exceeded a threshold and it put you on “probation” earlier in the drive.

But we’ll never know without full video. It is just a hypothesis.

For this hypothesis, I think the violation earlier in the drive would have had to progress to an audio warning, which it sounds like it did (obviously “pay attention to the road” is immediately an audio warning - not talking about that). Getting an audio warning on torque is exceedingly difficult to get so I imagine that would be ample grounds for probation.

Just a hypothesis.

 

[sleepydoc]

Yeah, I would suspect you exceeded a threshold and it put you on “probation” earlier in the drive.

But we’ll never know without full video. It is just a hypothesis.

For this hypothesis, I think the violation earlier in the drive would have had to progress to an audio warning, which it sounds like it did (obviously “pay attention to the road” is immediately an audio warning - not talking about that). Getting an audio warning on torque is exceedingly difficult to get so I imagine that would be ample grounds for probation.

Just a hypothesis.

Except my last unprovoked strike was less than 10 minutes into a drive so what is this supposed threshold? And if it does exist then it is a de facto punishment for people taking longer drives.

IME it's virtually impossible to take a long drive without multiple warnings unless you buy a weight. Even if you are holding onto the steering wheel keeping the right amount of torque continuously for a long period of time is virtually impossible. Likewise, if it's a bright day out and you have sunglasses on or if you're looking to the side because the car is turning it's easy to miss the blue screen. The amount of nags I received on this drive was in no way unusual and likely lower than normal for a drive of this length. As I recall, the audio warning I received was a good 20-30 minutes earlier, certainly not recent to the event.

The release notes say nothing about any sort of threshold. In fact they say exactly what I said above - you get several audio and visual warnings. Except you don't.

For maximum safety and accountability, use of Full Self-Driving (Beta) will be suspended if improper usage is detected. Improper usage is when you, or another driver of your vehicle, receive five 'Forced Autopilot Disengagements'. A disengagement is when the Autopilot system disengages for the remainder of a trip after the driver receives several audio and visual warnings for inattentiveness. Driver-initiated disengagements do not count as improper usage and are expected from the driver. Keep your hands on the wheel and remain attentive at all times. Use of any hand-held devices while using Autopilot is not allowed.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Except my last unprovoked strike was less than 10 minutes into a drive so what is this supposed threshold?

You have not detailed that one (or I don’t remember details). Any other warnings before hand? What was the strike for?

Anyway that is good, means short videos are possible.

As I recall, the audio warning I received was a good 20-30 minutes earlier, certainly not recent to the event.

Yeah that is fine per hypothesis.

you get several audio and visual warnings. Except you don't

They just say the strike occurs after the warnings. It doesn’t say “immediately before,”. Etc. And it does sound like you are saying you got several visual and audio warnings prior.

IME it's virtually impossible to take a long drive without multiple warnings unless you buy a weight. Even if you are holding onto the steering wheel keeping the right amount of torque continuously for a long period of time is virtually impossible.

I’ve done 600-mile drives recently (late September). The only warnings I got were immediate panic warnings and red wheel of death disengagements due to lack of confidence and construction zones. Different type of issue, and presumably would not adjust any threshold. It just gets really upset all of a sudden sometimes and tells you to pay attention (double beep) even though you are (because of cones or other road weirdness it does not like).

Satisfying the torque nag not a problem at all, and keeping eyes forward makes them minimal. It’s actually easier to virtually eliminate the nag on long drives because you get used to the constant required torque.

 

[KLam]

The hands on the steering wheel check could be more advanced checking then simply checking every 20 seconds or so. For example, afters a warning trigger, the system could double check again after a compliance on a shorter interval to make sure your hands are on the wheel. This would generate a hands on the steering wheel persistence and may also generate a percentage of hands on the wheel record.

 

[sleepydoc]

You have not detailed that one (or I don’t remember details). Any other warnings before hand? What was the strike for?

Very first post of this thread.

Satisfying the torque nag not a problem at all, and keeping eyes forward makes them minimal. It’s actually easier to virtually eliminate the nag on long drives because you get used to the constant required torque.

False. I've tried multiple techniques and will get nags even when I'm putting torque on the wheel.

hey just say the strike occurs after the warnings. It doesn’t say “immediately before,”. Etc. And it does sound like you are saying you got several visual and audio warnings prior.

so you say all they have to do is give you a couple warnings an hour before and then they can just issue a strike at any time. Sorry, that's complete bullshit. No rational person would argue that as a reasonable system.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

No rational person would argue that as a reasonable system.

I don’t make the rules, and don’t know the rules.

Very first post of this thread.

Long time ago, hard to tell if applicable, and can’t even tell from explanation the whole story of the drive. I guess you said 10 minutes.

False. I've tried multiple techniques and will get nags even when I'm putting torque on the wheel.

YMMV I guess. I don’t have an issue but torque needs to be substantial. I do very occasionally disengage as a result.

so you say all they have to do is give you a couple warnings an hour before and then they can just issue a strike at any time

No I am not saying what they have to do or even what they do.

I seem to remember in some early emails or posts online from Tesla (don’t remember) that it was also distance based, so above a certain rate of beeps was bad.

 

[bhakan]

Getting an attention notice immediately indicates a faulty interior camera. Have you submitted a service request to have it checked?

Yep. My local SC who initially told me after my two strikes to email early access decided to swap new cabin camera two days ago. However, when I drove this evening I am still getting the red hand warning without the blue alert. When I am on the AP stack on the highways I see them clearly as I drove 300 miles this afternoon and it was fine. In the evenings the cabin camera does not recognize my yoke holding or the torque application or the scroll wheel adjustments successfully. It keeps on nagging me. Just posted about this on the FSD 10.69 thread.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Yep. My local SC who initially told me after my two strikes to email early access decided to swap new cabin camera two days ago. However, when I drove this evening I am still getting the red hand warning without the blue alert. When I am on the AP stack on the highways I see them clearly as I drove 300 miles this afternoon and it was fine. In the evenings the cabin camera does not recognize my yoke holding or the torque application or the scroll wheel adjustments successfully. It keeps on nagging me. Just posted about this on the FSD 10.69 thread.

Seems like video would be well worth it. Maybe can borrow GoPro from someone (always overheating, not worth buying!) or find an affordable suction arm phone mount.

Not sure what works best. Something like this maybe? Would be nice to have something with a longer, more robust arm.

Powerful Suction Cup Camera Car Mount with Tripod Adapter and Phone Holder for GoPro Hero 11/10/9/8/7/6/5 Black,4 Session,4 Silver,3+,iPhone,DJI Osmo Action,Samsung Galaxy,Google Pixel and More https://a.co/d/6Dw1LsU

 

[bhakan]

Seems like video would be well worth it. Maybe can borrow GoPro from someone (always overheating, not worth buying!) or find an affordable suction arm phone mount.

Not sure what works best. Something like this maybe? Would be nice to have something with a longer, more robust arm.

Powerful Suction Cup Camera Car Mount with Tripod Adapter and Phone Holder for GoPro Hero 11/10/9/8/7/6/5 Black,4 Session,4 Silver,3+,iPhone,DJI Osmo Action,Samsung Galaxy,Google Pixel and More https://a.co/d/6Dw1LsU

I shared two short google videos on the FSD Beta 10.69 thread. Were you able to see them?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I shared two short google videos on the FSD Beta 10.69 thread. Were you able to see them?

Yeah impossible to tell what is happening.

 

[bhakan]

Yeah impossible to tell what is happening.

It is clear and tells you what is happening. It is the MS dashboard. What else can It show?

1. I am holding the yoke
2. It makes an audible sound with red hands pay attention to road ( this is the only thing not visible in the video) and flashing white on the top in spite of me trying to apply torque and/or scroll wheel adjustments. There is no pre-warning like the one I saw earlier on my hwy driving wiht AP stack.
3. Eventually, it stops flashing.
4. Within another 30 secs it repeats the same misbehavior.

After 3 -4 of those red hand warnings I got strikes in the past. So now I stop after 3-4 such warnings.
What else can it show?
This FSDb is so screwed up. flawed, and half baked now I feel like all the $$$ I have spent starting from 2017 on AP/EAP and now FSD have not helped much at least for me. Imagine what will happen when all the people that paid start to use FSDb on the local roads. I am worried if it is a single stack I am doomed with this cabin camera issues at night.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

with red hands pay attention to road ( this is the only thing not visible in the video) and flashing white on the top in spite of me trying to apply torque and/or scroll wheel adjustments.

My understanding is nothing to do with torque etc.

So video would need to show your head position, etc.

You ever try to film your LEDs?

Unusually tall/short? Camera completely ounobstructed I assume.

 

[bhakan]

My understanding is nothing to do with torque etc.

So video would need to show your head position, etc.

You ever try to film your LEDs?

Unusually tall/short? Camera completely ounobstructed I assume.

That's silly. Where else a responsible driver be looking at night except the road? Also, the same camera has no problem identifying my attention to the road during the day time. I drove past Richmond, VA and returned on I 95 with the crazy and unpredictable traffic on AP yesterday (300 miles) and no issues.

For an average height person it should not be an issue. I wear glasses while driving but not sunglasses or any dark glasses.

I have used FSDb at night without issues prior to Sept 19th. It was exactly after 10.69.2.2 that I installed on Sept 19th midday i started to have issues.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

identifying my attention to the road during the day time

Why I asked about LEDs.

have used FSDb at night without issues prior to Sept 19th. It was exactly after 10.69.2.2 that I installed on Sept 19th midday i started to have issues.

Maybe next release will fix it then!

 

[KArnold]

and flashing white on the top in spite of me trying to apply torque and/or scroll wheel adjustments. There is no pre-warning like the one I saw earlier on my hwy dri

First I have no doubt the software is flawed as you describe.

The above is the first I recall hearing that detail. I had assumed it was going straight to "strike" with no pre-warning. So you get the flashing white thing (isn't that the pre-warning?) and neither steering wheel torque or adjusting the volume spinner cancels it? That's a pretty big deal.

What do you mean by no pre-warning if not the flashing white light?

Is it dark when it fails, as opposed to dusk? I know the newer models should have IR. But if only dark outside, maybe a small interior light (dome light?) being on is enough to let the cabin camera see your pupils? Either that or don't use it at night, at least until they fix this.

Actually sounds like two bugs:

1. Scroll wheel or torque doesn't cancel the flashing light warning, and

2. Getting false warnings/strikes only at night.

Neither should happen.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

neither steering wheel torque or adjusting the volume spinner cancels it? That's a pretty big deal.

Why would this cancel it? Never does anything for this as I understand it.

Just check out IR (image!) and the scene and then re eval. Simple debug.

Probably broken somehow. User error needs ruling out though. Not possible with what we have.

 

[bhakan]

First I have no doubt the software is flawed as you describe.

The above is the first I recall hearing that detail. I had assumed it was going straight to "strike" with no pre-warning. So you get the flashing white thing (isn't that the pre-warning?) and neither steering wheel torque or adjusting the volume spinner cancels it? That's a pretty big deal.

What do you mean by no pre-warning if not the flashing white light?

Is it dark when it fails, as opposed to dusk? I know the newer models should have IR. But if only dark outside, maybe a small interior light (dome light?) being on is enough to let the cabin camera see your pupils? Either that or don't use it at night, at least until they fix this.

Actually sounds like two bugs:

1. Scroll wheel or torque doesn't cancel the flashing light warning, and

2. Getting false warnings/strikes only at night.

Neither should happen.

For your question about the pre warning:

As I mentioned, I get that blue/white pre warning while on AP (it is actually AS when I engaged it) on the highways.see below the scr shots from the MS owners manual. So, there I have time to react and no red death hands.
As for the flashing lights on my videos, as I mentioned driving on local roads with FSDb there is no AP blue/white warning I stated above. Non existent or not coded for in that stack on FSDb. So I just get the flashing lights with red hands. Also, after 5 such red hand pay attention warning episodes I get a strike. So, I stop FSDb after 4 such incidents.

As for the dusk or dark question:
It was dark last night. Also, few weeks back when I drove to Home Depot (had to drive west going there) it was dusk and no issues with FSDb. However, on my way back (coming east ) it was around 7 pm and was darker and got 4 warnings back to back before I totally disengaged FSDb.

Yep. I have been staying away from using Tesla in the evenings even tho I can use without FSD and drive myself. If I drive myself it gets confused and scream take control immediately for a mistake the car commits. I prefer my Outback and enjoying that ride evenings and nights.

 

[bhakan]

Why I asked about LEDs.

Maybe next release will fix it then!

As for your comment about LEDs, that rules people like me who live in the urban area and have to drive in our well lit streets with lights from tall buildings. What is the point of FSD on local if they cannot fix that?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

As for your comment about LEDs, that rules people like me who live in the urban area and have to drive in our well lit streets with lights from tall buildings. What is the point of FSD on local if they cannot fix that?

You have LEDs or not?

If not yeah probably just broken. Software probably thinks you have them! It would work better if it did not think you had them.

If you have LEDs make sure they work (image them!). You have the yoke so you must have them. Check them! Like checking the oil level on the Outback!