Faraday Future

[jhm]

I, for one, am happy to see Faraday enter the EV industry. I would very much like to see them succeed. I'd also like to see them coordinate with Tesla on many issues. Certainly I would welcome participation in the Supercharger network. It would be cool if they could coordinate on autopilot technology. Specifically, if Faraday uses compatible sensor hardware and programmable driving control, it could license autopilot software from Tesla and participate in fleet learning. I'd also be pleased to see Tesla service centers provide service to Faraday cars and all other EVs. Tesla could even become a dealership for Faraday. All this would depend on Faraday producing a quality product, but the opportunities to work together to accelerate sustainable transport are many. There's absolutely no problem with Faraday developing any new technology that works. The EV industry absolutely needs to work out all the technological options. This is essential to beating oil. I'm tired of waiting for traditional automakers to get serious about EVs. It's time for new entrants to step in. Faraday does not have to compete at Tesla's level. If they can make a batery-mobile better than the average gasmobile, then I want to see them do it. Viva La batmobile!

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For perspective (sales of the competition):

December sales for Chevy Volt, Nissan Leaf are what you expected

This is sad. The 13k decline in Leafs would have offset demand for 500 barrels of oil per day.

 

[Johan]

After reading this "Q&A" with one of their head engineers slash test driver (!) who is supposedly doing both jobs 50/50 that, with its professional still photos and very Public Relations heavy writing + checking out the video clip of their "mule" driving on a racetrack (but they don't show any part of the actual car, only the track), I'm more and more convinced this whole thing is only a big scam.

Q&A with Faraday Future’s Principal Engineer of Brake and Chassis Controls

 

[BluestarE3]

checking out the video clip of their "mule" driving on a racetrack (but they don't show any part of the actual car, only the track)

That's it? That's their mule? I could have made a video from the dash of my Prius driving around a track, sped up the video, added sound effects and claimed it was a Model 3 mule. And why does an electric car mule make sounds like that of an internal combustion race car?

 

[Johan]

That's it? That's their mule? I could have videoed my Prius driving around a track, sped up the video, added sound effects and claimed it was a Model 3 mule. And why does a mule of an electric car make sounds like that of an internal combustion race car?

When the company is a scam, looking for gullible rich investors that could be wooed by some shiny pictures and slik writing. Their website, presentations and marketing material is the best part of their company; this should be like a blasting warning alarm to investors.

 

[MikeC]

When the company is a scam, looking for gullible rich investors that could be wooed by some shiny pictures and slik writing. Their website, presentations and marketing material is the best part of their company; this should be like a blasting warning alarm to investors.

It's like FF is the company that the bears think that Tesla is.

 

[Johan]

It's like FF is the company that the bears think that Tesla is.

Absolutely, except Tesla's communications department and media strategy is their weakest link. Like it probably often is in companies ran by engineers.

 

[ecarfan]

After reading this "Q&A" with one of their head engineers slash test driver (!) who is supposedly doing both jobs 50/50 that, with its professional still photos and very Public Relations heavy writing + checking out the video clip of their "mule" driving on a racetrack (but they don't show any part of the actual car, only the track), I'm more and more convinced this whole thing is only a big scam.

Q&A with Faraday Future’s Principal Engineer of Brake and Chassis Controls

A "Q&A" entirely written by FF. PR fluff. The video clip is meaningless, it shows nothing.

When they produce a car and let non-FF people drive it, I will pay attention. You know, like what Tesla did over 8 years ago.

 

[EV-lutioin]

Funny, and to think people hassle Elon of having unrealistic timelines, but he actually builds cars and launches rockets.

 

[CButterK]

When the company is a scam, looking for gullible rich investors that could be wooed by some shiny pictures and slik writing. Their website, presentations and marketing material is the best part of their company; this should be like a blasting warning alarm to investors.

This could be a total windfall for Tesla in the not so faraday future! FF could lure investors to ensure funding for their Factory in Vegas, build it out, and then go bankrupt. Tesla could pick up that factory at $0.10 on the dollar with everything in it, and instantly double the production capacity of whatever products Tesla is building at that time...

 

[Johan]

This could be a total windfall for Tesla in the not so faraday future! FF could lure investors to ensure funding for their Factory in Vegas, build it out, and then go bankrupt. Tesla could pick up that factory at $0.10 on the dollar with everything in it, and instantly double the production capacity of whatever products Tesla is building at that time...

Except scam companies don't actually invest the investors' money in anything other than keeping up the facade.

 

[CButterK]

Except scam companies don't actually invest the investors' money in anything other than keeping up the facade.

Very True. But iirc, they already broke ground in vegas, have received decent incentives from Nevada, and they already have funding from the Big Chinese backer to at least build out the factory I think...

 

[Johan]

Very True. But iirc, they already broke ground in vegas, have received decent incentives from Nevada, and they already have funding from the Big Chinese backer to at least build out the factory I think...

Broke ground... Well they are putting on a very good show for desperate Nevada folks and they're shamelessly copying Tesla's entire concept (including going to Nevada for an economic incentives package). Except they'll never build anything.

'We plan to succeed': Electric-car startup Faraday Future officially breaks ground on its $1 billion factory

Note the super slick PR material but no technical or architectural specs what so ever on a plant that is supposed to exist in 2 years. Yea right. I also heard they have a great deal on some beachfront real Estate in Idaho.

 

[EV-lutioin]

Maybe they should change their name to Faraway Future

 

[Krugerrand]

1. I don't think FF is a 'scam'. I believe the intention (to make EVs) is there, they just aren't going about it the right way/have focused on the wrong end of things/don't have the right people and so on...

2. In the early days of Tesla (and SpaceX), I'm quite sure that there were people (like everyone there) who had multiple jobs to do and oversee such as our Mr. Lubbers, who sounds like a total Ironman. So while his current role of looking after all those functions seems impossible, it's not like there's any other choice at this point in time. As a company grows the role of employees becomes more focused across the board.

3. I'm not hopeful they'll succeed long term and I am immediately suspicious of the slickness with which they present themselves and their product in terms of the ability to be successful. For as much as Tesla gets grief about sizzle over steak, FF is currently the undisputed king of EV sizzle over steak.

 

[wdolson]

The reason there have been no successful automotive start ups in the US since 1925, and very few worldwide since then is the automotive business is not easy to get into. At least not building cars from the ground up. Tesla has only gotten this far because Elon Musk has the ability to rethink everything everyday and change his thinking on a dime if need be.

FF obviously has some slick sales people and maybe they are serious about building cars, but it takes more than just sales, more than just money, and more than just facilities to successfully make cars. Though all three are important factors. A new EV company might make it without someone at the helm like Elon Musk, Bill Gates, or Steve Jobs, but it's a handicap for them not having that kind of talent to keep to the mission even when things don't go well.

I think Elon Musk's awkward delivery style helped sell the brand. Elon thinks too fast for his mouth and he's not comfortable on stage, but to anyone listening carefully it's obvious he knows what he's talking about at least 90% of the time. It's obvious his skills lie elsewhere, and that gets people thinking maybe he's better at making cars than talking about them.

A slick sales pitch on the other hand makes people think that maybe the company is just selling vaporware. Which has most of us reading this thread thinking that way. FF may have substance, but so far it does look largely like a con man's pitch.

 

[ZachShahan]

You can believe me or not (up to you), but have had some off-the-record communications with FF people and it leaves me with the impression they are definitely trying, that it's not a scam. That said, their goals are pretty insane and I think the style of PR that they have been doing is often counterproductive ... except that it may not be for its actual aims... (which are not to scam, but to grow very quickly -- which faces many uncommon problems).

FF is obviously facing a tremendous challenge right now, and the number of skeptics are sure to be higher than the number of believers. From everything I've seen, I'm neither. I'm just watching. My hopeful side wants to see another fully electric player in the space. My critical side isn't very hopeful. We'll see.

And... if you want some more on-the-record stuff and haven't seen this, here's my video interview with Nick Sampson from ~1 month ago:

Interviewing Faraday Future’s SVP of R&D, Nick Sampson (Exclusive Video Interview)

 

[tftf]

FF mainly depends on backing from LeEco (at least for now). So to judge FF and its progress, keep an eye on LeEco:

China's LeEco teases its very own autonomous electric car

 

[electracity]

A slick sales pitch on the other hand makes people think that maybe the company is just selling vaporware. Which has most of us reading this thread thinking that way. FF may have substance, but so far it does look largely like a con man's pitch.

Yes, FF at CES was a mistake. Car makers need to sell more like consumer electronics now. Apple showing a wild iPad design that they never intend to build would be treated like a joke. FF showing the shell of a batmobile that they never intended to make was rightly treated as a joke.

I don't know why FF would pursue a plan in the U.S. and forgo the protection of starting in China.

 

[wdolson]

Yes, FF at CES was a mistake. Car makers need to sell more like consumer electronics now. Apple showing a wild iPad design that they never intend to build would be treated like a joke. FF showing the shell of a batmobile that they never intended to make was rightly treated as a joke.

I don't know why FF would pursue a plan in the U.S. and forgo the protection of starting in China.

I agree, that is a mystery.

They probably wanted to tap into the design talent in California (partially picking off Tesla employees), but they could design it in California and build it in China. Everyone but Tesla does that.

Selling in the Chinese market is also safer. China is a growing market and the rest of the world is stable with mostly just replacement of existing cars. In a growing market you can make more mistakes and survive than in a stable market. Being funded by a Chinese billionaire gives them a ticket into the Chinese market that Tesla doesn't have.

 

[Johan]

The did gone got legal counsel Chen. It's all about them Benjamins. Whatta loser. He couldn't even win one dealership fight in one state for Tesla so good riddance. They need Johnny Cochran with the Chewbacca defense:

Chewbacca defense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia