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Fast Vs Free Poll - A poll to understand usage patterns for SCs and Battery swaps

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by Aphysician, Jun 22, 2013.

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How do you plan to use battery swap in combination with SCs?

  1. 60 kWh. Have SC access, so will use that mostly with < 10% battery swap

    16 vote(s)
    14.2%
  2. 60 kWh. No SC access, as capacity good for daily commute. Will use battery swaps on all long trips.

    1 vote(s)
    0.9%
  3. 80 kWh. Free SC access. Will use battery swap on rare occasions and emergency situations.

    95 vote(s)
    84.1%
  4. 80 kWh. Free SC access, however time is tight. Will rely heavily on battery swaps.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Urban User. No garage to charge. Will use battery swaps exclusively.

    1 vote(s)
    0.9%
  1. Aphysician

    Aphysician Member, Michigan Chapter

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    #1 Aphysician, Jun 22, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
    Hi Friends,

    I am starting a poll to see how do owners plan to use SCs and Battery Swaps. Please select the option that suits you the most, if you agree with option 6 and option 7, then mention in a post manually, others just choose the option. The poll will help generate vital data on how owners plan to use battery swap. Feel free to suggest edits or addition of options. I hope to see a shift in usage patterns as more 60kWh are sold, owners now have option not to choose SC access and just rely on battery swap for their trip (16 to 20 swaps for the price of SC access). My estimate is battery swap will be used for <10% of all trips, and I would love to be proved wrong. Thank you all for your participation. Hope we can provide important information to Tesla.

    Important Note:
    (A) This is not a Model S exclusive poll, Model X reservation holders and future Gen III owners are more than welcome to cast their vote

    (B) I also encourage Roadster/Model S owners, who have two cars, or has another reservation (Model S/X) to let me know, I will just manually add your second vote. Unfortunately, Roadster are not SC capable and won't have swap as well.

    (C) I am sorry to leave owners with 40 kWh capacity, few reasons (1) Tesla is not producing 40 kWh anymore, it is now a software limited 60 kWh battery, which I hope owners may upgrade in future. (2) Not sure how Tesla will handle SCs and swapping for this capacity. But I will really appreciate your vote, please vote as 60 kWh owners

    Hari

    Updated Vote:

    I have added the two options members suggested. I tried but could not edit the poll. Members can reply manually in post and I will keep an updated tally in this original post. Typo with 85 kWh also corrected.

    How do you plan to use battery swap in combination with SCs? (Total votes - 115)

    Option 1 : 60 kWh. Have SC access, so will use that mostly with < 10% battery swap (Votes - 15, 14%)
    Option 2 : 60 kWh. No SC access, as capacity good for daily commute. Will use battery swaps on all long trips. (Votes - 1, 1%)
    Option 3 : 85 kWh. Free SC access. Will use battery swap on rare occasions and emergency situations. (Votes - 92, 78%)
    Option 4 : 85 kWh. Free SC access, however time is tight. Will rely heavily on battery swaps. (Votes - 0, 0%)
    Option 5 : Urban User. No garage to charge. Will use battery swaps exclusively. (Votes - 1, 1%)
    Option 6 : 85 kWh. Free SC access. Never plan to use battery swap (Votes - 5, 5%)
    Option 7 : 60/85 kWh. Range good for most commute, rare SC use. Battery swap, impressive but overhyped; don't plan on using it. (Votes - 1, 1%)
     
  2. gvillager

    gvillager Member

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    I doubt that most users will use battery swaps on a regular basis. I guess it'll be nice to have the option just to get you out of a jam. Wireless charging would be much more beneficial and could be used to alleviate the hurdles that urbanites have with EV ownership. Just imagine if we could wirelessly charge while parked on the street. I think it'll be a viable option once the technology is perfected and we are able to cut through the red tape to build the infrastructure. This would likely never happen but one could always hope.
     
  3. Bubba

    Bubba Banned

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    There should be the option to vote,

    80 kWh. Free SC access. Never plan to use Battery Swap.
     
  4. Kaivball

    Kaivball Member

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    "Free".

    (Actually, I already paid for it in the purchase price of the car so I intend to get my money's worth).
     
  5. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    I picked the closest option, however my answer would be I don't plan to use the SC network very much at all and the battery swap even less.

    I don't suspect many people at this stage will vote to use the swaps much at all because they order the car without swaps being available.
    In 6-12 months if you asked the same question I suspect you would get more people answering the will make use of the swap stations.
     
  6. Aphysician

    Aphysician Member, Michigan Chapter

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    @ gvillager

    I agree, swaps will be used only in crunch situation by most users. I feel that will be the case esp. in 60 kWh owners due to fees. It seems for now that 60 kWh owners will be paying a slight premium for SC access and swaps to higher range pack. Future is definitely wireless charging. Range will cease to be an issue then for every EV, however Tesla doesnt have that problem even now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    @ kaivball

    "Free" seems to have an upper hand for now, though as you mentioned it is all perceived. Tesla owners paid it in purchase price, more so 60 kWh owners, I feel SC access should be free for them as well and should not have to pay added access fee.
     
  7. Aphysician

    Aphysician Member, Michigan Chapter

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    #7 Aphysician, Jun 23, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
    @ Bubba and @ Zythryn


    I would like to add the two options you suggested. I tried but could not edit the poll. May be owners can reply manually in post and I will keep an updated tally in my original post.


    Option 6: 85 kWh. Free SC access. Never plan to use battery swap
    Option 7: 60/85 kWh. Occasional SC use. Battery swap, impressive but overhyped; don't plan on using it.


    @ Zythryn


    I agree swaps were not a major factor in buying decision previously. However after watching all the announcements I have changed my configuration. I had put my order on hold, will change to 85 kWh, due to hidden costs for 60 kWh owners for SC access and battery swap. In the long run, there may not be much difference in cost between 60 kWh and 85 kWh. I see you have both. The poll is a bit early, it would be interesting to see whether there is any shift one way or another as time passes. I would like to monitor these 2 things, which battery pack people will consider now and whether next wave of owners will use battery swap more than early adopters. I will keep the poll going, as didnt select an end date at all.
     
  8. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Given where I travel, I doubt there will ever be a swap station--I'll be lucky to have supercharger access within the next three years (grey dots on the map means still in the planning/construction stages). My thought is that the Supercharger system is the best safety device for long distance travel to be implemented in a very long time because it forces the driver to take a reasonably long break every 150-200 miles or so. This is something that they should do anyway, but most don't. The only reason I'd ever use a swap station is if there was a backup (more than a one car wait) at the Superchargers or the Superchargers were offline for some reason.
     
  9. PhilBa

    PhilBa Active Member

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    I agree there needs to be an option for "never battery swap".

    Also, I think my only swap will be when replacing the battery pack to either upgrade to higher capacity or replace a failing one. Swapping instead of supercharging seems kind of silly.

    What's with the 80K listings in the poll results?
     
  10. Raffy.Roma

    Raffy.Roma Active Member

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    @PhilBa

    I agree with you. In fact for me the choice (if I had the Model S) would be option 6.
     
  11. Zextraterrestrial

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    6
    And 7 :wink: it is impressive but I will never use it.
     
  12. 100thMonkey

    100thMonkey Member

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    the biggest impact of the SC's and swapping will be psychological, helping to eliminate the number one barrier to owning an EV, FEAR of running out of "gas". I don't expect to use either all that much but I won't hesitate to if need be. I will mostly use SC's but if in a pinch, the battery swap may be worthwhile. it will be interesting to see how usage evolves. my initial reaction to the fee announcement was to think of it in terms of the value of a given swap, which seemed overpriced, but if I think of the fee as part of the overall cost of ownership, something done rarely to cover that .01% situation where neither home charging nor SC's cover the need (ie 4+ people in the car, on vacation where time is a premium), then it doesn't seem so expensive.

    With nearly 8K miles on the car in 4 months, having made a major trip nearly every weekend for the last 5 or 6 I can say that the biggest issue is not getting where I need to go on the long distance part, it's destination charging. So far Tesla does not have a good model for destination charging. practically everywhere I go I run into a new kind of plug for which Tesla does not make an adapter. I never realized there were so many different kinds of plugs out there. In each case, the model of spacing SC's in between cities rather than also within cities would still leave me challenged with how to charge fast enough while at my destination to make side trips. my car has spent hundreds of hours plugged in at 12A, barely giving me enough charge to do what I've needed to do and certainly not without having to think about it a lot. maybe I've had bad luck, I certainly don't know how typical it is to run into non standard dryer plugs, but somehow I do. Quick 220's are not practical, IMHO.

    One solution may be to fill in some of the holes with J1772 CS 100's from clipper creek since they are usable by most EV's.
     
  13. Aphysician

    Aphysician Member, Michigan Chapter

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    @ jerry33


    It will be interesting to see what info Tesla gets from their first swap station, and what is the deployment strategy. Only indication given till now is that these stations will co-exist with SCs. I still don't see swap stations operating solely. Hopefully Tesla invests significantly more in SCs than swaps. SCs deployment schedule seems to be aggressive. Need to see that it is not all talk. SCs seems to fit all situations, esp now with 120 kWh. You highlight importance of scheduled breaks in long trip, 20 minutes stop is just about right, good thinking on Tesla's part. Swaps will be use mainly as a backup or as an option for long trips for lower capacity cars.
     
  14. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Active Member

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    At $60 for an 85KWH battery, you're paying the equivalent of an 18mpg car at $4.00/gallon, if you're just doing swapping and no charging.

    So, I think swapping is mostly for show and making arguments. I think by the time swapping stations are where you'd want them to be, Tesla would have a 500 mile battery, which is an even better solution. I do not drive more than 500 miles in a day ever.
     
  15. AlMc

    AlMc 'Senior Moments' member

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    Expect to never use the battery swap but it is nice to have it. It is probably more psychological than anything else. Hope the cost of setting up the swap stations is justified by having increased acceptance of EVs/Tesla and increase in stock price (Yep..need the stock price to go up to afford an 'X' :wink:)
     
  16. Aphysician

    Aphysician Member, Michigan Chapter

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    @ PhilBa

    Thank you for your suggestion. Option added. 85 kWh typo corrected.
     
  17. Ven Rala

    Ven Rala Member

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    Option 1. I plan to use the supercharger only rarely. Don't drive more than 75 miles away very often (less than once a month) but have been happy with using the Delaware supercharger. Though I may never use the battery swap, I like having that option. If I am in a rush and can't wait 1 hour because my SOC is very low, for roughly the cost of a gas fillup, I am good to go. Its about options and getting the general public ready for Gen3 and over their EV fears. Tesla already won over the early Adopters. Now they have to win over the average American.
     
  18. bollar

    bollar Disgruntled Member

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    The challenge is that 20 minutes is a 1/2 charge. A full charge is 40-60 minutes, which does add up over the course of a long trip. In any event, if there are multiple drivers, the safety issues are different, and that group might rather take a long break every five-six hours, not every two-three. This suggests a combination of charging and swapping is more efficient.
     
  19. Aphysician

    Aphysician Member, Michigan Chapter

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    #19 Aphysician, Jun 23, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
    @ 100thMonkey, @ smorgasbord, @ AIMc, @ Ven Rala

    As you said, swapping is Tesla's answer to the crowd who felt SCs are not a real solution. Tesla is at the crossroads, where they need to move out of cult status and look for buyers outside of the early adopters community. Anything that helps to increase adoption of EVs by general public is welcome. Now they too can buy an EV, for most part will use charging at home and when they make long trip they will have an option of battery swap in the same time as a gas fillup. They will soon realize that SCs is a much smarter option and not very time consuming and will change to SCs. Meanwhile Tesla owners in crunch can enjoy the benefits of swapping on rare occasions. Ultimately range will increase and neither swapping nor SCs will factor much in planning a long trip.

    I also am not a fan of charging 60$ and getting Gas Guzzler economy of 18 mpg, even less if you need to swap to another battery at the next station. In these scenarios it can even be in the same league as Hummer. I hope 60$ is the max that they charge, even from the 60 kWh owners, anything more and this idea won't even take off. Hopefully they could come with lower price for 85 kWh owners. Currently it is a lifestyle decision and convenience feature, you do it if time and mental peace (esp when traveling with small kids) are important.

    My car is still in reservation, and look forward to make my first long trip. It seems destination charging is a real issue, with not many options for charging at higher rates. EVSE network is building up quickly. There are some really good discussions on this forums about how best to do destination charging. Partnering with hotels, compatibility with one of national EVSE networks, and deploying HPWC at public locations could provide solution for short trips around your destination. High amp charging stations like CS-100 is the only solution for future, however it is not going to have wide deployment till other EVs catch up.

    @ Bollar

    Your argument is certainly a strong one, combination will give you the best experience of Model S. Somebody on main swapping discussion has highlighted how one can use combination of swapping and SCs. Still with the fees of swapping, if one uses it exclusively then the bill will rack up pretty quickly. So when we compare SCs (free) vs Swapping (fast) for long trip, free is essential and fast is optional. I will be interesting to see what will be future usage patterns, and which one has an upper hand in the end.
     
  20. anthony

    anthony Member

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    80 kWh. Free SC access. Never plan to use Battery Swap.

    While by many calculations my 20 min of time is worth more than the cost of the swap, I find I'll spend 20 min at a rest stop by accident.

     

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