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EVie'sDad
Member
Common sense would dictate that as my vehicle approached the stopped vehicle, I would cover the brake in preparation to take over. One should never become too comfortable with the technology, for it is those rare 'edge' cases that will catch you off guard. So vigilance is needed, hence the insistence to hold the wheel (and pay attention to the road and the direction the vehicle is traveling in).The manual is very clear with its first sentence below:
In the old time, we had conventional cruise.
Then, we got conventional cruise with collision warnings. Those warnings were too annoying and too unreliable so people turned them off after paying good money for the feature.
We then got smart cruise that could speed up and slow down with the lead car in front but it could not brake for a full stop. Human still had to brake for full stop to avoid a frontal collision.
It then took a very long time from that point for the system to be able to brake to a full stop when a lead car would brake for a stop.
But to brake a full stop for an already stationary vehicle waiting for you in front has been a challenge for Tesla and all car manufacturers with radar technology as well.
It's a well known limitation of radar technology.
Thus, Google introduced LIDAR for that purpose.
Tesla insists radar technology is just as good as LIDAR.
Thus, it is where we are after all the hype of self-driving technology that could detect and avoid obstacles.
Tam
Well-Known Member
All car manufacturers that strive for self-driving technology have at least a camera as a basic sensor so there's no question about its requirement.
From Elon Musk's tweet:
Tam
Well-Known Member
OK! I do admit that you are right: My claim of "special skill" turns out not to be special at all: It's just basic driving skill even when on Autopilot.
However, it doesn't hurt to learn more about the system's limitations as well as in what scenarios it work best and which ones it may have problems with.
That means be ready and expect it to whack traffic cones unless proven otherwise.
Expect it to whack a high bumper....
and so on...
I just got Model X with enhanced autopilot for 2 weeks and so far, I am quite pleased as a test pilot.
It still has problem of detecting tall truck from time to time.
I was on autopilot at 35mph approaching a stopped tall truck but I had to manually take over at the very last minute. I took a picture and the dashboard shows that the system does not register the very big, tall, stopped obstacle in front:
I would not recommend using autopilot if you don't have a special skill to be ready to take over the system at any time.
"Special Skill" = "Tesla Owner Common Sense"
Tam
Well-Known Member
With basic skill, avoiding hitting traffic cones and front bumper is just so easy. However, if you add Autopilot in the mix, you'd better have microsecond reflex!
If you watch the youtube on whacking traffic cones above, I don't know how basic driving skill could react to the system's sudden collision to traffic cones without any warnings.
If you read about the thread on whacking high bumper, some suggest that the owner had time to prevent that while the owner said no way.
Thus, what kind of Tesla Owner Common Sense can we learn from the above two examples?
May be:
Do not use Autopilot on freeway when you are next to traffic cones?
Do not use Automatic parallel parking if you know your reflex time is not as fast as some in the thread demand?
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Tam
Well-Known Member
My mention of Lidar was "Thus, Google introduced LIDAR for that purpose."
And if you look at Google set up, it does not have only LIDAR as a sole sensor: It also has cameras, radar, ultrasonic as sensors as well.
Thus, it is difficult to misunderstood Google setup as either-or-situation but it's actually a more robust sensor fusion.
Of course sensors don't solve everything such as Radar can detect stationary objects but how can you write a software so that it does not stop for a small concave soda bottom lying on the road but does for a big tall truck.
So far Google seems to have the best set up as its system requires the least human intervention (California Disengagement Report):
Waymo/Google Miles per DisEngagement=5,128
Tesla Miles per DisEngagement=3
Notice that it's unfair to compare Tesla in the report because it only drove 550 miles autonomously. But that's what the report got so far.
Tam
Well-Known Member
It funny WWII proximity radar was really great at distances of 1,800 feet even when the 'vehicle' is moving 400 mph. This is how we triggered the two atom bombs used. Sure the earth moves, but do you really want to go there?
The radar in AP1 at least is Doppler radar (similar to police speed radar), not normal detection radar. Tesla has figured out how to use their radar like detection radar, but it's not how it was originally intended to be used. The original purpose of the radar was to identify the speed of other vehicles on the road in front of the car.
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
OK final reports are coming in and we can now say conclusively that he was NOT watching harry potter.
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/59500-59999/59989/604759.pdf
The
National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB)Vehicle Recorder Division received the following devices
Device 1:
Laptop Computer
Device 1 Serial Number:
ECN0CX305107503
Device 2:
Chromebook
Device 2 Serial Number:
FCNLCX051001518
Device 3:
Chromebit
Device 3 Serial Number:100A
-
CM2XXNF
Device 4:
Micro
SD
Memory Card
Device 4 Serial Number:
n/a
The hard drive was removed from the laptop and was imaged using forensic software. The image of the hard drive was reviewed. The most recent accessed, modified, and created files were from April 6, 2016. The screen of the laptop was broken so the clock drift of the laptop could not be determined. Without the offset of the laptop clock to real time, it could not be concluded whether or not the driver was on the laptop at the time of the crash. No Harry Potter movie file was found on the hard drive of the device
The micro SD memory card contained photos and music files. The photos were not pertinent to the investigation and the music included parts of the Harry Potter movies’ soundtracks.
So no proof of a Harry Potter DVD or movie file was documented. No authority in the case has said he was watching a movie. I think we can safely say he wasn't watching a movie.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The only person who suggested he was watching a Harry Potter movie was the truck driver he hit. He may have actually been listening to the music (others speculated an audiobook).
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
HUMAN PERFORMANCE FACTORS GROUP CHAIRMAN’S FACTUAL REPORT
Williston, FL
HWY16FH018
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/59500-59999/59989/604712.pdf
In-vehicle Distractions
NTSB investigators found the Tesla driver’s cell phone, a laptop and several other electronics in the wreckage. However, the investigators did not uncover any evidence that those devices were in use at the time of the crash.
Williston, FL
HWY16FH018
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/59500-59999/59989/604712.pdf
In-vehicle Distractions
NTSB investigators found the Tesla driver’s cell phone, a laptop and several other electronics in the wreckage. However, the investigators did not uncover any evidence that those devices were in use at the time of the crash.
One of the links also said he held the wheel for 25 seconds out of 37 minutes of driving. he kept getting hold wheel, he'd hold it, let go and not hold it until the next message
http://jalopnik.com/tesla-driver-in-fatal-florida-crash-got-numerous-warnin-1796226021
http://jalopnik.com/tesla-driver-in-fatal-florida-crash-got-numerous-warnin-1796226021
JeffK
Well-Known Member
According to the study both vehicles were in view of each other for 7 seconds. If a semi is poised for a turn it takes 4 seconds or less to get the trailer between the two lanes on a left turn (depends how much gas you give it and if he was trying to beat the car). Multiple youtube videos can confirm the timing of a semi making a left turn.
This means two things, first, the truck driver saw the car ahead of time and ignored it, secondly the Tesla only had 4 seconds or less to respond to a vehicle that shouldn't legally be crossing yet.
I've had semi trucks pull in front of me like this before and if I had been looking away for even a small fraction of time I wouldn't have had time to brake suddenly. Regardless of the car or its safety features if the law had been followed by the Truck driver or if the Tesla driver paid more attention then it wouldn't have happened.
On the other side of the coin, the event, although tragic, served as a wakeup call to Tesla Autopilot limitations and AEB limitations in general. This lead to more advancements in the area and eventually greater safety for us all.
This means two things, first, the truck driver saw the car ahead of time and ignored it, secondly the Tesla only had 4 seconds or less to respond to a vehicle that shouldn't legally be crossing yet.
I've had semi trucks pull in front of me like this before and if I had been looking away for even a small fraction of time I wouldn't have had time to brake suddenly. Regardless of the car or its safety features if the law had been followed by the Truck driver or if the Tesla driver paid more attention then it wouldn't have happened.
On the other side of the coin, the event, although tragic, served as a wakeup call to Tesla Autopilot limitations and AEB limitations in general. This lead to more advancements in the area and eventually greater safety for us all.
It sounds like their actual income comes from attorneys for automotive crash litigation, but they do not mention specific links, just cases they investigated. Otherwise, they have no income apparently.
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