Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

[roblab]

Enjoy your AP, but pay attention when you using it. It is very fortunate that there is only one victim of this incident. Hopefully there will be no more victims of still not perfect system. IMHO victim still will be alive if he will pay attention to the road, I do not want to be killed or injured by not yet 100% safe system, please be considerate to others using road.

And you could say this exact same thing to drivers of any car. Cars are not "yet 100% safe", obviously. Heck, people are not 100% safe. Inattention can kill you. Speeding raises the risk. Airbags help, but only partly. Being an aware driver is about the only thing you can do. You don't stop driving.

As I said before, it's a tool. You can kill someone, or yourself, with a hammer, a power saw, a ladder, a table knife, even. My only kick here is the unrealistic reactions and fears of the unknown. Surely these people that are posting to turn off PA are overreacting, right? They would not stop driving their old cars just because a gas car bursts into flame every 90 seconds somewhere in the US.

 

[llngoc]

And you could say this exact same thing to drivers of any car. Cars are not "yet 100% safe", obviously. Heck, people are not 100% safe. Inattention can kill you. Speeding raises the risk. Airbags help, but only partly. Being an aware driver is about the only thing you can do. You don't stop driving.

As I said before, it's a tool. You can kill someone, or yourself, with a hammer, a power saw, a ladder, a table knife, even. My only kick here is the unrealistic reactions and fears of the unknown. Surely these people that are posting to turn off PA are overreacting, right? They would not stop driving their old cars just because a gas car bursts into flame every 90 seconds somewhere in the US.

Well said. The only way to remove any risk to any human is to completely remove the human factor in the equation.

 

[Caligula]

Is it just me or does anyone else see parallels between this and gun laws discussions?

That said, I found this article interesting (unrelated to my previous comment about gun laws):

Cruise Control Could Be Hazardous To Your Health

This part is of interest, given the deceased's previous career choices:

"A study carried out by his department found that it takes only four minutes before a driver falls into a very low level of vigilance if he or she is physically inactive, sitting in a comfortable seat with a constant engine sound and on a road with few features.

Personality also plays a role, he said. “If someone is a high sensation seeker, who likes excitement, it can be even shorter than that. The moment there is nothing to interest them their level of arousal disappears very quickly.”

 

[DrManhattan]

Is it just me or does anyone else see parallels between this and gun laws discussions?

Please don't!

 

[Caligula]

Please don't!

I'm just making an observation. I'm not making any sort of personal judgement or opinion on the matter.

 

[Gynob001]

Is 65MPH (assuming that was the posted speed limit) enough for the Tesla to drive through the tracter truck (lifting it off the ground), continuing some distance and breaking a pole?
I seriously doubt whether he was going at 65, didn't have time to stop, and had to plough through the truck.
Tesla may not be at fault but I doubt whether the driver is as innocent as some wrote in the postings. As per my calculaions, at 90 MPH, the Tesla drver would have required 8-12 secs to apply brake and come to a stop. It is doubtful that the long truck was in the mioddle of the road when the Tesla saw the truck. On the other hand, the Truck driver might have seen the tesla at a distance, misjudged its speed and tried to make the turn, expecting (hoping) the car driver would stop. Sadly, one is mot here to tell the truth and the other is reluctant to tell that he misjudged the speed of the car and continued to make a turn. The expectation of the truck driver hat the car would slow down or stop might be offset by the car dirver's preoccupation with DVD oplayer (if that part is correct).

 

[Wknapp0924]

Bottom line is that I would rather drive on a road with all autopilot equipped vehicles than one with drivers texting or putting on makeup.

Autopilot drivers also don't swerve in and out of traffic at high speeds. I am a much
More relaxed driver when I am in my Tesla.

 

[Az_Rael]

Wow, have you even read the other posts? This is about automatic emergency braking. Many cars have this. Some may be better than Tesla but many aren't. AEB helps in a lot of situations and when it doesn't help at least it doesn't hurt. Why single Tesla out?

I don't think it's just about AEB. I wonder if having AP engaged may have contributed to him being a distracted driver.

The question is if he was driving manually in this situation, would he still have not seen the truck in time to take evasive action? Even if he only had TACC on or regular cruise control, he may have been more likely to be watching the road when he crested the hill since he would have to actively keep the car in its lane.

Teslas lane keeping is currently the only one that works with your hands off the wheel for long periods of time. So, I think that is why the NHTSA may be singling them out. It may end up being a human psychology problem, not a technology problem.

 

[dhanson865]

It is very clear because current Autopilot version requires a driver to babysit it.

What is very clear is you don't know what Autopilot means.

You think Autopilot should equal self driving aka Autonomous driving but it doesn't

Even after cars come out that can drive themselves with no human babysitting that won't be autopilot and you'll still have to babysit autopilot.

See Autonomous car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and pay attention to the terms.

 

[Larry]

First off my condolences to J Browns family.
I think this is very simple- the truck driver made an error in his judgment, the S driver was either disabled and couldn't react or he was inattentive and didn't react. Mr Brown lost his life in a combination of factors that are statistically very very small. I don't see how the Tesla is at fault in any way. When AP is activated you agree to the parameters set forth and you push the button, end of story. The primary culprit is the truck driver.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Here's a source (although it was another one that I was referring to, will look later, too tired ) describing what capacity I meant...the system as a whole.

Exclusive: The Tesla AutoPilot - An In-Depth Look At The Technology Behind the Engineering Marvel

I understand there were/are lane assistance system in place, thats not what I meant which I could have been more clear.

Teslas AP was the first to use deep neural networks (DNNs) which of course is courtesy of mobileye. No other manufacturer in the world used DNNs within their ADAS before tesla did to my knowledge....in a public release.

I'm not saying Tesla didn't introduce some advancements. That would be unlikely (just like it is unlikely other manufacturer's didn't introduce advancements in other areas).

My point was that given you seem to be crucifying Tesla for releasing a level 2 system "first" (and taking issue with the Beta label), I just needed to point out that they were not first with a level 2 system and that the beta label is largely irrelevant to the issue. Tesla uses the same legal disclaimers about driver responsibility as other systems, and this has nothing to do with the Beta label. All level 2 systems will have such disclaimers, simply because such systems by definition have many situations that require the driver to take over. Even after Autopilot leaves Beta, as long as it remains a level 2 system, it will need such disclaimers.

It is okay to take up a position that you feel level 2 systems are irresponsible (a position many will disagree with), but I think many people push back against this because you are suggesting Tesla is alone or first in this, which is not true.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Teslas lane keeping is currently the only one that works with your hands off the wheel for long periods of time. So, I think that is why the NHTSA may be singling them out. It may end up being a human psychology problem, not a technology problem.

I don't think that's true:

At cruising speed, this hands-off function lasts 12 seconds, then the green wheel turns bright red, presenting three options: Do nothing and you’re scolded after a three-second delay by a reminder tone, though the lane-keeping function does continue; you can give the wheel a quick left-right tug to reset the 12-second clock; or simply take over and steer the good old-fashioned way.

Semi-Autonomous Cars Compared! Tesla Model S vs. BMW 750i, Infiniti Q50S, and Mercedes-Benz S65 AMG - Feature


So, either I'm reading that wrong, or it wasn't worded very well. But it appears that the MB will continue with lane-keeping even if you don't place your hands on the wheel...it'll just send out a tone every 3 seconds.

 

[Grendal]

Here is a lengthy comment I made on Green Car Reports on the subject of AP:

A computer program, which AP essentially is, has difficulty mimicking human behavior. The computer can out process a human being easily. Back in the early-90's, the world chess champion was asked if a computer program could be world champion. His answer was "of course not" because, at that time, computers worked only by brute force. They only crunched millions of moves and has no ability to strategize. Computers improved and someone got the brilliant idea of teaching the program the basics of chess strategy. In 1997 a computer program beat the World Chess Champion, Garry Kasparov for the first time.

AP and autonomous driving programs are going through the exact same process. Right now they are mostly working through brute force and interpreting the limited data they receive. Human beings have excellent "situational awareness" and computer programs are going to stink at this for quite a few more years. AP and AD will be incredibly good at something that human beings are terrible at. They will never get distracted by something not within their sphere of attention. A human might see a puppy on the side of the road and watch it and drive into the back of the car in front of them. A human might accidentally push the accelerator instead of the brake. A human would be better at seeing a bunch of cars in front of them with their brake lights on then slow down before AP or AD would ever do so. An attentive human could have easily foreseen this truck pulling in front of it illegally and been prepared to react. Here is one more where a computer would be much better than a human being: the car in front of you slams on their brakes but their brake lights are out. A human being is used to the lights coming on and is very likely to avoid reacting in that situation and plow into the back of the car. The AP or AD driving program would hit the brakes properly because it isn't going off of brake light cues.

So what I would conclude from this is that we are probably already at the point where the AP or AD programs are better than human beings overall. Human beings will continue to be better at weird situations for many more years to come. Overall if the areas that AP and AD programs are better are more than those weird situations then we should continue to use them.

 

[JeffK]

Right now they are mostly working through brute force and interpreting the limited data they receive.

This statement here is not true. They are using deep neural networks these can work several orders of magnitude faster than brute force for the tasks at hand.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don't think that's true:

Semi-Autonomous Cars Compared! Tesla Model S vs. BMW 750i, Infiniti Q50S, and Mercedes-Benz S65 AMG - Feature

So, either I'm reading that wrong, or it wasn't worded very well. But it appears that the MB will continue with lane-keeping even if you don't place your hands on the wheel...it'll just send out a tone every 3 seconds.

Right, all of the systems out there can handle hands off for extended periods of time. They just nag you to take over. Also, Tesla's update for 7.1 has a timer based nag, just like all the systems out there.

As I pointed out to someone else, a year before Autopilot came out, someone already pull a stunt of having nobody in the driver's seat in an Infiniti Q50.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Teslas lane keeping is currently the only one that works with your hands off the wheel for long periods of time. So, I think that is why the NHTSA may be singling them out. It may end up being a human psychology problem, not a technology problem.

NHTSA is not "singling them out". Tesla reported the incident to NHTSA as soon as it happened and NHTSA is investigating given the fatality. Also as others pointed out, Tesla's system is most definitely not the only one where you can keep your hands off the wheel for a long period of time.

 

[Az_Rael]

NHTSA is not "singling them out". Tesla reported the incident to NHTSA as soon as it happened and NHTSA is investigating given the fatality.

I agree - I was just responding to the prior poster that Tesla had been "singled out".


I like autopilot and the direction the industry is going. I think it will make us safer in the long run as more cars on the road get the functionality. I am also glad the regulators are taking a closer look at this accident with regards to AP, it will be an interesting test case.

 

[SR22pilot]

You think im a short or tesla basher? Get real man. I'm just as passionate about the tesla movement as the most obsessive tesla advocate. Read my post history and just get real.

I'm objectively (for once pertaining to tesla) giving my opinion on this specific issue.

I love tesla like most of everyone else on here. Don't hurt my feelings like that again

I went and read some of you past posts and admit I owe you an apology. In the past several months there have been so many people joining TMC just to bash Tesla that I over reacted, didn't research and bottom line jumped the gun. Sorry for lumping you in with Dr ValueSeeker and his ilk.

It doesn't change how over the top I find some of your comments. Improving safety always has been and always will be an incremental thing. I don't want to increase rear end accidents just because the system sometimes doesn't respond to side intrusions just like I don't want to eliminate a system that misses bicyclists if it properly stops when the car in front slams on the brakes. In time these systems will improve. Eventually someone will be complaining because the system works great except when an airplane is making an emergency landing on an interstate.

 

[SR22pilot]

Yes, and we must also eliminate parachute recovery systems on light aircraft because one might deploy in such a way as to descend in a heavily populated area, injuring of killing someone.

Every technological advance produces some negative consequences but the end of most of them is positive.

In the meantime it seems likely that the current case involved watching a portable DVD while driving and a long history of speeding violations. In any given accident there seem always to be multiple contributing factors, and so it seems to be here. Just as in almost all aircraft accidents complacency tends to dominate the driver/pilot reaction ineffectiveness.

From the A330 with frozen pitot tubes to the misprogrammed approach with the B777 at SFO, the pilots should have known better. Nearly all auto accidents are similar. Yet the first reaction in the A330 case was to blame Airbus, in the B777 to blame Boeing and in our current case to blame Tesla.

We all want the machine to somehow overcome human error. "Ain't gonna happen!" Complacency always can overcome technology. We have endless examples, don't we? Still, it is far easier to blame the machine.

I totally agree. Just like this thread I also get upset with all of the crazy airframe parachute posts on other forums. What if you come down in a school yard and kill children? That's never happened. There is a loud sound when the rocket fires and the large parachute generates a lot of attention. People move out of the way. Never mind that people have been killed during regular (non parachute) emergency landings that hit homes or joggers on the beach when a relatively silent airplane (engine out) landed. People seem to love to kill innovation by inventing scenarios or by failing to balance the risks vs. rewards.

Here are some suggestions for automobiles that would have more of a positive impact than emanating the AP functionality.

1) Eliminate radios including streaming. The are a distraction.
2) Eliminate all cell phone use in cars including hands free.
3) Eliminate cruise control. See the latest European study showing it leads to distracted driving.
4) Eliminate kids in cars except when in the back accompanied by an adult. Kids are a huge distraction.
5) BIGGEST SINGLE SAFETY ITEM: Put limiters on cars so they can't go over 10 miles per hour. With set belts, airbags, crumple zones etc. this will eliminate almost all deaths.

 

[GoTslaGo]

Don't forget cup holders. One shouldn't be drinking anything as it is distracting.

I totally agree. Just like this thread I also get upset with all of the crazy airframe parachute posts on other forums. What if you come down in a school yard and kill children? That's never happened. There is a loud sound when the rocket fires and the large parachute generates a lot of attention. People move out of the way. Never mind that people have been killed during regular (non parachute) emergency landings that hit homes or joggers on the beach when a relatively silent airplane (engine out) landed. People seem to love to kill innovation by inventing scenarios or by failing to balance the risks vs. rewards.

Here are some suggestions for automobiles that would have more of a positive impact than emanating the AP functionality.

1) Eliminate radios including streaming. The are a distraction.
2) Eliminate all cell phone use in cars including hands free.
3) Eliminate cruise control. See the latest European study showing it leads to distracted driving.
4) Eliminate kids in cars except when in the back accompanied by an adult. Kids are a huge distraction.
5) BIGGEST SINGLE SAFETY ITEM: Put limiters on cars so they can't go over 10 miles per hour. With set belts, airbags, crumple zones etc. this will eliminate almost all deaths.