Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Fatal Model S accident

docherf

Member
Feb 1, 2016
204
198
US
Saw this very sad story on the news :

Driver in Monroe High School prom night crash hospitalized to deal with trauma
WCPO_prom_crash_2_1524883394166_85234904_ver1.0_900_675.jpg
WCPO_prom_crash_2_1524883394166_85234904_ver1.0_900_675.jpg
 

ElectricTundra

P85D AP1
Feb 5, 2015
916
409
Tundra
I don't think accident is the correct term. This appears likely the result of deliberate bad decisions on the part of the driver to drive too fast and not pay proper attention. U.S. drivers kill 40,000 people every year. We have the highest rate of road fatalities of all developed countries. A person in the U.S. is 4 - 5 times as likely to be killed by someone driving a car as someone in the U.K., Sweden, Netherlands, etc.

At a macro level we can blame U.S. traffic engineers who design roads differently than engineers elsewhere. Engineers in Europe assume that drivers will make bad decisions and they design roads accordingly to enforce safer driving. U.S. traffic engineers design roads for much higher speeds and then say that drivers need to take responsibility for obeying the rules, paying attention and driving safely.

A young girl is dead. Who is responsible?
 
Last edited:

Burnardr

Member
Apr 13, 2016
33
48
South Jersey
I don't think accident is the correct term. This appears likely the result of deliberate bad decisions on the part of the driver to drive too fast and not pay proper attention. U.S. drivers kill 40,000 people every year. We have the highest rate of road fatalities of all developed countries. A person in the U.S. is 4 - 5 times as likely to be killed by someone driving a car as someone in the U.K., Sweden, Netherlands, etc.

At a macro level we can blame U.S. traffic engineers who design roads differently than engineers elsewhere. Engineers in Europe assume that drivers will make bad decisions and they design roads accordingly to enforce safer driving. U.S. traffic engineers design roads for much higher speeds and then say that drivers need to take responsibility for obeying the rules, paying attention and driving safely.

A young girl is dead. Who is responsible?
I don't think accident is the correct term. This appears likely the result of deliberate bad decisions on the part of the driver to drive too fast and not pay proper attention. U.S. drivers kill 40,000 people every year. We have the highest rate of road fatalities of all developed countries. A person in the U.S. is 4 - 5 times as likely to be killed by someone driving a car as someone in the U.K., Sweden, Netherlands, etc.

At a macro level we can blame U.S. traffic engineers who design roads differently than engineers elsewhere. Engineers in Europe assume that drivers will make bad decisions and they design roads accordingly to enforce safer driving. U.S. traffic engineers design roads for much higher speeds and then say that drivers need to take responsibility for obeying the rules, paying attention and driving safely.

A young girl is dead. Who is responsible?
Sounds like fake news. Wikipedia puts it at 2X and Europeans have far fewer motorways and vast distances to cross.
 

ElectricTundra

P85D AP1
Feb 5, 2015
916
409
Tundra
Sounds like fake news. Wikipedia puts it at 2X and Europeans have far fewer motorways and vast distances to cross.
First, our having twice as many deaths as Europe would be OK? Seriously? US is about 2x the EU deaths, but is that what we should aim for? Average? (though average would be much better than current).

Some quick stats (fatalities / 100k population):

U.S. 11.1

Switzerland 2.7
Sweden 2.8
Netherlands 3.1
UK 2.9
Denmark 3.4
 

Esme Es Mejor

Member
Dec 18, 2016
837
5,005
Bay Area
First, our having twice as many deaths as Europe would be OK? Seriously? US is about 2x the EU deaths, but is that what we should aim for? Average? (though average would be much better than current).

Some quick stats (fatalities / 100k population):

U.S. 11.1

Switzerland 2.7
Sweden 2.8
Netherlands 3.1
UK 2.9
Denmark 3.4

Fatalities per 100k population is a terrible measure of road safety. Fatalities per million vehicle miles traveled makes much more sense & tells a very different story.

In areas of the US that are as urbanized as the UK, France, and Germany, the fatality rates are very similar, and sometimes lower. Our fatality rate is much higher in rural areas, but even there, it’s similar to rural areas of Europe. Overall, our fatality rate is about the same as Belgium or Italy.

So, more Americans die on the road, but it isn’t because our roads are less safe. It’s because we’re less urbanized than Europe— so we drive more miles at higher speeds.
 

whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,617
7,946
Seattle area, WA
First, our having twice as many deaths as Europe would be OK? Seriously? US is about 2x the EU deaths, but is that what we should aim for? Average? (though average would be much better than current).

Some quick stats (fatalities / 100k population):

U.S. 11.1

Switzerland 2.7
Sweden 2.8
Netherlands 3.1
UK 2.9
Denmark 3.4
What is it per 100k population per miles driven? People in EU drive less, hence less of a chance to die in a car.

Ps> having lived there, I do agree that they prepare their drivers better (harder to get a license) but still, the stats should reflect the amount of driving people do.
 

NeverFollow

Active Member
Aug 9, 2010
1,278
732
The driver and the girl who elected not to wear her seat belt are responsible.
Don't the development of airbags was designed to protect people not wearing seat belt?
Otherwise, frontal airbags don't provide too much additional protection if you wear a seat belt.
Even-though air bags deploy only for particular impact location and direction.
 
Last edited:

f3honda4me

Member
Feb 22, 2018
221
176
Colgate, WI
Don't the development of airbags was designed to protect people not wearing seat belt?
Otherwise, frontal airbags don't provide too much additional protection if you wear a seat belt.
Even-though air bags deploy only in particular impact location and direction.
Watch a slow motion crash with test dummies wearing seatbelts and airbags deploying. Then you’ll understand why airbags are meant to work “with” seatbelts.
 

ElectricTundra

P85D AP1
Feb 5, 2015
916
409
Tundra
Fatalities per mile driven is a measure of road design, not the danger of a transportation system. However, it looks like this (/ 1 billion km traveled):

US: 7.3

Sweden: 3.5
UK: 3.5
Switzerland: 3.5
Norway: 4.1
Netherlands 4.2

IIRC, all OECD countries: 6.2
 
  • Informative
Reactions: AustinPowers

Esme Es Mejor

Member
Dec 18, 2016
837
5,005
Bay Area
Fatalities per mile driven is a measure of road design, not the danger of a transportation system. However, it looks like this (/ 1 billion km traveled):

US: 7.3

Sweden: 3.5
UK: 3.5
Switzerland: 3.5
Norway: 4.1
Netherlands 4.2

IIRC, all OECD countries: 6.2

Comparing the US with the safest countries in Europe, rather than all of Europe, is cherry-picking.

The safest states in the US are comparable to the safest countries in Europe. Massachusetts has a rate of 3.8, right in the middle of the safest countries in Europe. Minnesota is safer than Norway or Finland.

Even the most dangerous state in the US— Montana— is safer than the Czech Republic, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, and Croatia. It’s 4x safer than Russia.

Overall, it looks to me like the U.S. is slightly more dangerous than Europe, but the difference is nowhere near as big as your numbers suggest.
 

.jg.

Member
Feb 27, 2018
446
369
Weston Super Mare, England
Comparing the US with the safest countries in Europe, rather than all of Europe, is cherry-picking.

The safest states in the US are comparable to the safest countries in Europe. Massachusetts has a rate of 3.8, right in the middle of the safest countries in Europe. Minnesota is safer than Norway or Finland.

Even the most dangerous state in the US— Montana— is safer than the Czech Republic, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, and Croatia. It’s 4x safer than Russia.
Massachusetts has a really high population density (over twice that of the UK) and something like 80% of miles travelled in city/urban areas, which dramatically redcues traffic fatalities. I would have thought that few Americans would want to compare their country with relatively poor countries from the former Soviet Union.

In the UK, I doubt that any insurance company would be prepared to provide even the minimum third party insurance for any 17 year old to drive a Tesla or a similar high performance car. Insurance for young drivers (17 - 25) is incredibly expensive here - for a 17 year old, insurance premiums average over £2000 per annum - most of those being for cheap small cars. Some insurers require young drivers to have GPS logging devices and observe night time curfews.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AustinPowers

whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,617
7,946
Seattle area, WA
Massachusetts has a really high population density (over twice that of the UK) and something like 80% of miles travelled in city/urban areas, which dramatically redcues traffic fatalities. I would have thought that few Americans would want to compare their country with relatively poor countries from the former Soviet Union.

In the UK, I doubt that any insurance company would be prepared to provide even the minimum third party insurance for any 17 year old to drive a Tesla or a similar high performance car. Insurance for young drivers (17 - 25) is incredibly expensive here - for a 17 year old, insurance premiums average over £2000 per annum - most of those being for cheap small cars. Some insurers require young drivers to have GPS logging devices and observe night time curfews.
Insurance for young people in most parts of the US is similar. In the end, remember that actuaries determine the rates based on risk. No insurance company is going to lose money, so if insurance is in fact cheaper for young people somewhere, that means the statistics justify it.
 

trm2

Active Member
Apr 3, 2016
1,066
1,657
CLE
No insurance company is going to lose money

This is only partly true. The two biggest auto insurers in the US (State Farm & GEICO) both had combined ratios over 100 last year. So both companies lost money writing auto insurance policies. They made money on their investments, and it was enough to more than offset the actual losses on the insurance business.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: AustinPowers

Chaserr

Hyperactive Hyperdrive
Sep 5, 2017
2,666
5,595
Logan
Nope, airbags are designed to work in conjunction with seat belts.

Airbags + seatbelts = safety, this is true, but they weren't designed to be together necessarily. The DeLorean, for example, was going to have airbags but not seatbelts as standard equipment originally. This was back in the early 80s when people were talking about "getting thrown clear" of an accident as if that was some kind of preferable thing though, but it does highlight how the 2 safety devices have converged even though they were not originally designed to exist together.
 

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top