Favor Low SoC or Small Cycles?

[zazim]

There’s not really much benefit from waiting until 20% to charge, especially if you only have 120V charging. It will take forever to get back up to 50% from 20%.

That is the whole point. I can keep it between 20-35% during the week and still have plenty of range. If I want it higher for weekends, I can charge daily for a few nights. I need to figure out what my nightly charging adds (and then adjust my percentages accordingly).

 

[tesluv108]

What car, year, model and battery etc?

Tessie often have the initial value showing something completely different than the stock battery capacity.

I guess we find that you are following the same route that other batteries does.

Calendar aging does not happen from bad luck or destiny. It can pe prognosed as it follows the laws of physics and chemistry.

Late November 2015 build s w 90kwh battery

 

[HMHM]

I still would like someone to comment on whether they think Tesla will allow my battery to run into 16 years of age without getting any errors? Calendar aging hasn’t seemed to have effected my battery at all as it’s only near 9k miles in 7 years. It was showing over99.5% health on Tessie. I think the previous owner used very conservative charging such as 75% max.

I believe, the age of your electrical switches, wiring, electronic components, and circuit board can be the main issue in your case. Any of these failures can lead to errors. The likely scenario is the hardware failure leading to error codes.

Based on your data, calendar aging is almost non-existent. This is a good feedback for those who talk about the calendar aging in the same breath as cycle aging.

Ultimately, the life of a BEV is highly dependent on cycle aging, cells' health, and hardware QC standards.

 

[tesluv108]

I believe, the age of your electrical switches, wiring, electronic components, and circuit board can be the main issue in your case. Any of these failures can lead to errors. The likely scenario is the hardware failure leading to error codes.

Based on your data, calendar aging is almost non-existent. This is a good feedback for those who talk about the calendar aging in the same breath as cycle aging.

Ultimately, the life of a BEV is highly dependent on cycle aging, cells' health, and hardware QC standards.

I do tend to agree. I’ve heard of a few battery experts on this forum who actually repair hardware components when Tesla claims the full hv battery needs to be repaired. Time will tell, I definitely do not want to sell the s because it’s in immaculate condition w 9k miles with a sunroof. They don’t build them like they did in late 2015

 

[AAKEE]

Late November 2015 build s w 90kwh battery

That battery started at 85.8 kwh total capacity I think.

Was it Tessie you used?
What initial capacity (in the meter) does it show?
What ”usable capacity” does it show?

 

[tesluv108]

That battery started at 85.8 kwh total capacity I think.

Was it Tessie you used?
What initial capacity (in the meter) does it show?
What ”usable capacity” does it show?

Yes, Tessie was showing over 99% health but only 81.5 usable capacity. How can we know for sure what the beginning capacity of a late 2015 p90d was? I can tell you the new range was around 265. The usable capacity in the meter never said more than 81.9 which might be wrong

 

[AAKEE]

Yes, Tessie was showing over 99% health but only 81.5 usable capacity. How can we know for sure what the beginning capacity of a late 2015 p90d was? I can tell you the new range was around 265. The usable capacity in the meter never said more than 81.9 which might be wrong

What Tessie names “usable”actually is the total capacity. (References to threads with the Tessie vendor and how they calculate it, as well as comparison of BMS values and Tessie). This means that Tessis “usable” includes the buffer.

There is info here on TMC about the original capacity on the model S packs.

==========>90D/P90D– ~85.8 kWh total capacity

That was your batterys new value.

Tessies usable capacity of 81.5kWh means that you have 81.5 of 85.8, so 95% or 5% lost capacity.

Calendar aging is predictable and will happen. The rate is set from SOC x temperature x time.

Even 5% seem like a very low number for a 2015 if its the stock battery.

Whats your current range at 100%?
(There is a selectable setting on model S for the shown range which must be correctly set, I do not remember the terms).

 

[tesluv108]

What Tessie names “usable”actually is the total capacity. (References to threads with the Tessie vendor and how they calculate it, as well as comparison of BMS values and Tessie). This means that Tessis “usable” includes the buffer.

There is info here on TMC about the original capacity on the model S packs.


That was your batterys new value.

Tessies usable capacity of 81.5kWh means that you have 81.5 of 85.8, so 95% or 5% lost capacity.

Calendar aging is predictable and will happen. The rate is set from SOC x temperature x time.

Even 5% seem like a very low number for a 2015 if its the stock battery.

Whats your current range at 100%?
(There is a selectable setting on model S for the shown range which must be correctly set, I do not remember the terms).

I haven’t charged to 100% in a year but I believe it would show 265. Does anyone know if teslafi does a similar battery health estimate as Tessie? I wanted to try out their service

 

[AAKEE]

I haven’t charged to 100% in a year but I believe it would show 265. Does anyone know if teslafi does a similar battery health estimate as Tessie? I wanted to try out their serviceView attachment 950042

First of all Tessie is wrong.

In the meter it should say 85.8 kWh, as per reference to the people with knowledge to Model S (I’m so far only a model 3 guy, at least for the next few days… )
You can change that by thapping and altering the number.

Tessie calculates the number by added km range after charging. The reported number for charges includes the portion of the buffer, wich never was charged into the battery (as the buffer was already there).

Teslafi shows estimated range at 100% and also the average from other similar cars.
You do not get a capacity number or a degradation number. (You get relative numbers between current, highest and lowest range numbers though).

Teslafi, like Tessie get the over-the-air-data which has some limitations.
Teslafis number for calculating the range is rounded SOC to the whole percentage, but the reported range is with two digits.

This means the reported range jumps up and down by 5 km or so despite the nominal full value and the true range is beeing same.
Also, I always did get more range on a real full charge than the current graph shows.
Last full charhe showed 492 km but teslafi hovers around 487-490.

 

[tesluv108]

First of all Tessie is wrong.

In the meter it should say 85.8 kWh, as per reference to the people with knowledge to Model S (I’m so far only a model 3 guy, at least for the next few days… )
You can change that by thapping and altering the number.

Tessie calculates the number by added km range after charging. The reported number for charges includes the portion of the buffer, wich never was charged into the battery (as the buffer was already there).

Teslafi shows estimated range at 100% and also the average from other similar cars.
You do not get a capacity number or a degradation number. (You get relative numbers between current, highest and lowest range numbers though).

Teslafi, like Tessie get the over-the-air-data which has some limitations.
Teslafis number for calculating the range is rounded SOC to the whole percentage, but the reported range is with two digits.

This means the reported range jumps up and down by 5 km or so despite the nominal full value and the true range is beeing same.
Also, I always did get more range on a real full charge than the current graph shows.
Last full charhe showed 492 km but teslafi hovers around 487-490.
View attachment 950046

Well I agree with you that my battery should be at about 5% degradation. This is most likely calendar aging which is not bad for a battery approaching 8 years of age. You will love the S !

 

[tesluv108]

Also the recent software update pushed out the ability to daily charge to 50% instead of 60%. I like it

 

[AAKEE]

Also the recent software update pushed out the ability to daily charge to 50% instead of 60%. I like it

When tesla changed from two fixed charging settings, long time ago the made the slider go 50-100%.

 

[GData]

View attachment 950046

How many of those 8 vehicles were operated in a similar climate to yours? It could be that the other 8 were in hotter climates which degrades the battery more. The comparison tool needs to hold both mileage & temperature constant, not just mileage.

 

[AAKEE]

How many of those 8 vehicles were operated in a similar climate to yours? It could be that the other 8 were in hotter climates which degrades the battery more. The comparison tool needs to hold both mileage & temperature constant, not just mileage.

The average cell temp of my M3P was 13.46C or about that (taken from memory).

This will reduce the degradation with roughly 25% or so from 25C.

The average M3P ( there is about 400 in the teslafi log, I changed the setting to involve more cars. Earlier it was only EU cars.)
The average M3P seems to have four times more degradation.

To make it simple, half of this is due to me living in a colder climate and the other half is due to the low SOC strategy.

Comparing to other swedish cars, my car still had below half the degradation compared to other swedish cars of the same age, despite my being driven more than most of the others.

I have made a calculation tool that works very well to estimate the expected degradation from both calendar and cyclic aging. We do not need to have the same temperature to compare, we can adjust for average cell temp.

 

[Tslylr]

People not carrying much about batteries can lead in market to all those negative experiences of second and third EV owners expecting good range and seeing in reality much worse. Can make a lot of demage to EV reputation.

 

[Tslylr]

The average cell temp of my M3P was 13.46C or about that (taken from memory).

This will reduce the degradation with roughly 25% or so from 25C.

View attachment 952654

The average M3P ( there is about 400 in the teslafi log, I changed the setting to involve more cars. Earlier it was only EU cars.)
The average M3P seems to have four times more degradation.

To make it simple, half of this is due to me living in a colder climate and the other half is due to the low SOC strategy.

Comparing to other swedish cars, my car still had below half the degradation compared to other swedish cars of the same age, despite my being driven more than most of the others.

I have made a calculation tool that works very well to estimate the expected degradation from both calendar and cyclic aging. We do not need to have the same temperature to compare, we can adjust for average cell temp.

Hi, firstly thanks a lot for whole the info about batteries and low SOC you gave to this forum. What are your expectations about batteries in 23 model Y from Berlin? You have mentioned LG batteries, which are probably in my Y, are more sensitive to fast charging. Have you found any other observations worth knowing? I’m supercharging only on long trips few times a year, otherwise I’ll hold tou your low SOC strategy with charging under 55% for daily use before leaving. Thanks for answer!

 

[AAKEE]

Hi, firstly thanks a lot for whole the info about batteries and low SOC you gave to this forum. What are your expectations about batteries in 23 model Y from Berlin? You have mentioned LG batteries, which are probably in my Y, are more sensitive to fast charging. Have you found any other observations worth knowing? I’m supercharging only on long trips few times a year, otherwise I’ll hold tou your low SOC strategy with charging under 55% for daily use before leaving. Thanks for answer!

MY from Berlin use the LG M50 cells.
From @eivissa we know that they are holding up very well.

Despite being slightly smaller than the Panna 82.1kWh, they actually probably match the Panna in capacity after a couple of years or so.

The tests for the M50 cells show that they are not a really high performance cells, this is valid both for charging snd discharging.

For SuC they probably is not ”worse” than the Panasonics.
I would not worry, but I would recommend to always precondition. I always do.
It is not a Tesla advice to always preheat the battery but the research clearly show is the benifits from cells being >40C when fast charging.

 

[eivissa]

The survey has some good data already. You can filter to compare the LG 5L M50 directly with the equivalent Panasonic as well

[Survey] Battery Degradation - All models from 2019

This is an attempt of a deeper dive into the battery degradation of all the different battery packs. In order to take part the preferred way is to fill out this Google form: https://forms.gle/RUSRrpmCaUx3XbWr7 If you have already gathered these values and want to batch copy paste, then within...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[Tslylr]

MY from Berlin use the LG M50 cells.
From @eivissa we know that they are holding up very well.

Despite being slightly smaller than the Panna 82.1kWh, they actually probably match the Panna in capacity after a couple of years or so.

The tests for the M50 cells show that they are not a really high performance cells, this is valid both for charging snd discharging.

For SuC they probably is not ”worse” than the Panasonics.
I would not worry, but I would recommend to always precondition. I always do.
It is not a Tesla advice to always preheat the battery but the research clearly show is the benifits from cells being >40C when fast charging.

Thanks for reply. I do have many questions, so I will try to ask few of them, if you have time for reply. And thanks a lot @eivissa for interesting stats.

What do you call fast charging, anything over 1/3C so even 50kW charging is fast charge?

LG cells looks like do not deliver same peak power as Panasonics. So buying Acceleration boost and using it properly probably does affect degradation of cells and probably more LGs then Panasonics?

Why Tesla don't flatten power output in lower SOC to be same as in higher SOC if Acceleration boost ads power even in lower SOC? Just to be able to sell us 2000 Euro toy?

 

[Tslylr]

The survey has some good data already. You can filter to compare the LG 5L M50 directly with the equivalent Panasonic as well

[Survey] Battery Degradation - All models from 2019

This is an attempt of a deeper dive into the battery degradation of all the different battery packs. In order to take part the preferred way is to fill out this Google form: https://forms.gle/RUSRrpmCaUx3XbWr7 If you have already gathered these values and want to batch copy paste, then within...

teslamotorsclub.com

Thank you for another study material!