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FD Beta : TomTom Map, Roundabouts and the Speedlimit

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
14,420
36,412
Seattle, WA
I think Tesla is using a combination of Google Maps, Mapbox and openstreetmap, just like Rivian
Is there a way to see MapBox maps ?

The issues I describe are shared by TomTom, Bing & Michelin. The issue that @Mardak posted above are shared by Bing & Michelin. Those issues are not in Google or OSM. So, either MpaBox is getting that data from TomTom/Bing/Michelin or all of them are getting the data from another source that is faulty.

And maybe OSM is using TomTom maps……

No - I've checked. OSM doesn't have those issues.

ps : These issues in two entirely different states are quite unique - and perfectly explain the Tesla routing / driving behavior. This can't be a coincidence.
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
14,420
36,412
Seattle, WA
Wow - they have actually changed the map as well. Not just the correction I made - but they corrected the way the road is shown. They made it 2 separate lanes with a median, something I wanted to send as correction but there was no option to do it.

So it took just 3 days from when I submitted the report to getting properly corrected.

Next question - when will it show up on my car ?!

Now the changes show up in Bing !!!!

So, yes, Bing is using TomTom.

As of yesterday changes were not in the car (going by behavior). It is possible it will be a long wait until I get the next map update.
 

ShawnA

Active Member
Supporting Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,104
859
Edwardsburg, MI
Hi @EVNow ,

I have a related question that I need help on...
Large screen (2018 Model X) shows the intersection correctly.
It is in rural Indiana.
FSD totally croaks at this location.

Navigation Error.jpg

North is up. I'm driving left to right.
It will not take the sweeping right turn or a right turn
at the stop sign which is straight up.

Coordinates are 41.753852 -85.823317

It used too look like the letter "V"

Where do I go to inquire and to fix the navigation error?

Thank You for your help,

Shawn
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
14,420
36,412
Seattle, WA
Hi @EVNow ,

I have a related question that I need help on...
Large screen (2018 Model X) shows the intersection correctly.
It is in rural Indiana.
FSD totally croaks at this location.

View attachment 733665

North is up. I'm driving left to right.
It will not take the sweeping right turn or a right turn
at the stop sign which is straight up.

Coordinates are 41.753852 -85.823317

It used too look like the letter "V"

Where do I go to inquire and to fix the navigation error?

Thank You for your help,

Shawn

Checkout TomTom map to see how it looks. Google map is used purely to show on the screen and that is not what is used for actual navigation. See the first post for TomTom link.

You can also use this link to compare all the maps at once. See the post by @Mardak on first page.


ps : OSM/Google/TomTom all show similar maps for that co-ordinate. Not sure where the problem is ... (did anything change there in the last year or so ?).
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
14,420
36,412
Seattle, WA
I found an interesting area near me. Its an area that is quite different in Google and OSM and TomTom (and even Bing is slightly different from TomTom).

There are some new neighborhoods coming up there - and the main road has a number of new roundabouts. OSM & TomTom/Bing show no roundabouts but Google shows a couple. There are multiple roads near by with differences between OSM and TomTom. From the drive today it was clear Tesla was using TomTom map - but will make a few more runs to make sure I can definitely say whether OSM, TomTom or Bing is used.

Left - OSM Cycle, Center Google, Right TomTom.

1637107265800.png



ps : I've a TON of corrections to submit to TomTom ;)
 
Last edited:

ShawnA

Active Member
Supporting Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,104
859
Edwardsburg, MI
Hi @EVNow ,

I have checked OSM OpenCycleMap, TomTom, Bing Hybrid,and Google (Traffic) Map are all the same...
Google (Transit) Map does not show the curve...

What is left to check or report when the big 3 all agree?
I have never heard of Google (Transit) Map mentioned anywhere...

How do we choose, identify, or locate a map "tile?"
(The number 18454 is shown on the OSM preceding to the street data.)

Thank You,

Shawn
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
14,420
36,412
Seattle, WA
What is left to check or report when the big 3 all agree?
Then, it is probably not a map issue ?

It is still not very clear - what exactly Tesla does with these maps. Also TomTom won't let us know if there are stop signs on the map - for eg. I think if the maps look fine - from what we can see - the only thing left to do is to report to [email protected] ... ?
 
I found an interesting area near me. Its an area that is quite different in Google and OSM and TomTom (and even Bing is slightly different from TomTom).

There are some new neighborhoods coming up there - and the main road has a number of new roundabouts. OSM & TomTom/Bing show no roundabouts but Google shows a couple. There are multiple roads near by with differences between OSM and TomTom. From the drive today it was clear Tesla was using TomTom map - but will make a few more runs to make sure I can definitely say whether OSM, TomTom or Bing is used.

Left - OSM Cycle, Center Google, Right TomTom.

View attachment 733765


ps : I've a TON of corrections to submit to TomTom ;)
I still don’t think Tesla is using TomTom maps, in that case TomTom is obliged to communicate this to their shareholders. Tesla is only using the speedlimits as far as I know. But as a TomTom shareholder it would be great news if Tesla is using TomTom maps. So interesting case ;-)
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
14,420
36,412
Seattle, WA
I still don’t think Tesla is using TomTom maps, in that case TomTom is obliged to communicate this to their shareholders. Tesla is only using the speedlimits as far as I know. But as a TomTom shareholder it would be great news if Tesla is using TomTom maps. So interesting case ;-)
Is it possible MapBox is supplementing OSM data with TomTom - may be in some cases overriding OSM data which caused problems near my house ?
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
14,420
36,412
Seattle, WA
From the other thread :

Various apps use their data, but simplest I've found is using the Android Demo App Mapbox Demo - Apps on Google Play
Pretty much any map view in the demo you can zoom out and then zoom in to the region you're interested in.

The menu includes a "Query map" -> "Query a map feature" where you can tap on to get some extra information about lines and areas. Unclear if they're only showing certain data and/or converting some values, e.g., OSM [oneway=yes] vs MapBox oneway - "true" or [highway=primary] vs type - "primary".

iOS doesn't have the Demo, but there's a "Studio Preview" which seems to require a login:

Couple of issues I saw near my home (that I've previously mentioned here and corrected on TomTom) - look very different on MapBox.
- Extra road segment that TomTom/Bing had are not in MapBox (which just looks like OSM). But the car definitely wanted to take that non-existent road.
- One of the roundabouts that was in TomTom is not in MapBox. But the car definitely shows that roundabout - behaves like it is navigating the roundabout (putting on turn signal, stopping and waiting - and most importantly shows the roundabout in the navigation)

To me this is quite definitive that Tesla is not using MapBox "maps" - but TomTom. Now, Tesla could be using MapBox APIs with their own version of some kind of combined map that uses TomTom + OSM the basis. If Tesla uses a custom integrated map - we don't know how they handle conflicts and differences. Seems to me if they are doing that - they give priority to TomTom and supplement with OSM in some areas ?
 
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EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
14,420
36,412
Seattle, WA
I still don’t think Tesla is using TomTom maps, in that case TomTom is obliged to communicate this to their shareholders.
I don't think this is true. Tesla could have a contract with them which includes confidentiality. Huge billion dollar deals could be hidden from public - let alone what is probably a small deal between TomTom and Tesla.

Think about the Tesla - Fiat/Chrysler deal. Until Fiat disclosed it, Tesla didn't say anything because Fiat had some kind of confidentiality agreement. Tesla did file some papers with SEC - but they got them sealed. This was the Billion dollar deal that saved Tesla in 2019 when Tesla was running out of cash - and Elon tried to sell Tesla to Apple. Elon tweeted this famous tweet at the time - nobody could understand what it meant.

 
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From the other thread :



Couple of issues I saw near my home (that I've previously mentioned here and corrected on TomTom) - look very different on MapBox.
- Extra road segment that TomTom/Bing had are not in MapBox (which just looks like OSM). But the car definitely wanted to take that non-existent road.
- One of the roundabouts that was in TomTom is not in MapBox. But the car definitely shows that roundabout - behaves like it is navigating the roundabout (putting on turn signal, stopping and waiting - and most importantly shows the roundabout in the navigation)

To me this is quite definitive that Tesla is not using MapBox "maps" - but TomTom. Now, Tesla could be using MapBox APIs with their own version of some kind of combined map that uses TomTom + OSM the basis. If Tesla uses a custom integrated map - we don't know how they handle conflicts and differences. Seems to me if they are doing that - they give priority to TomTom and supplement with OSM in some areas ?
Thanks to your post TomTom shares were up 10% today ;-)) keep up the good work!
 
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See Tesla 3 on the last page of the whitepaper of TomTom Intelligent Speed Limit Assistance (ISA), in Europe ISA will be required from July 2022. Tesla 3 is using map based ISA from TomTom
Not to split hairs, but this whitepaper says Tesla 3/X map-based ISA were tested; it didn't indicate that Tesla was using TomTom data.
 
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EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
14,420
36,412
Seattle, WA
Not to split hairs, but this whitepaper says Tesla 3/X map-based ISA were tested; it didn't indicate that Tesla was using TomTom data.
Actually NCAP tested various cars including Tesla 3/X. NCAP tests only production cars - so including them in the white paper means those cars do have TomTom speed assist.
See Tesla 3 on the last page of the whitepaper of TomTom Intelligent Speed Limit Assistance (ISA), in Europe ISA will be required from July 2022. Tesla 3 is using map based ISA from TomTom
Thanks for this. Looks like Tesla is using TomTom's map based speed assist - not sure what else from TomTom they are using.
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
14,420
36,412
Seattle, WA
I'm just at a loss on all of this, I've looked at OSM, MapBox (haven't checked out TomTom). But how can Tesla navi give these instructions for a simple right turn (indicated by arrow). FSD just highlights the issues with map data.

View attachment 734350
In TomTom looks like "right turn" is missing. Correct it in TomTom.

1637256088850.png
 
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