Fed up w/not getting new FSD. Lawsuit?

[clydeiii]

I am tired of waiting for any significant updates on self driving. When I purchased the FSD feature several years back, they didn't tell me that my personal driving habits would keep me from being able to use their latest software for years. While I understand and appreciate the reluctance to push the updates to the masses, I paid for this, to the tune of thousands of dollars.

I live in the Chicago area and in order to drive these expressways, you have to follow a little closer than Tesla would like. Otherwise you get people cutting in front of you left and right. Otherwise, I drive just fine (according to their app).

I just saw the article on phantom breaking as well. I wonder if this is better in the new beta? Of course I can't tell you that because I have been kept from any significant improvements for years now. I am sorry, but years is too long for something you paid thousands for. To single out who is "worthy" of these improvements should have been spelled out before shelling out thousands for a "feature" that was supposed to be improved. A car only lasts so long and this is now a measurable part of my overall investment that I feel I should be compensated for. Or at least allow me to get my money back because as we all know, it isn't there yet.

Am I way off base here? Anyone else getting cut out from the beta that doesn't drive "perfect" enough for Elon?

Let me be clear though. Other than this major issue, the car has been really good. This FSD isn't like a $500 add-on. It is too expensive to not have the latest updates, especially when they are so important.

OP, why not just drive on AP on the highways? You will likely have a 99+ score if you simply let the car drive itself.

 

[newcarbuyer123]

Well, I think a big part of the problem is Tesla's own doing because they promised and sold FSD going all the way back to 2016 with claims it just needed validation and regulatory approval (which was a lie). Tesla created this expectation among consumer that they have been struggling to meet every since. I do think Elon naively thought FSD would be easy so he thought it would not be a big deal to start selling it before it was actually finished. But, when you sell a product that does not exist, there is going to be a lot of pressure to finish it and there will be a lot of consumers understandably frustrated. If Tesla had just said that they were working on FSD and only sold it and released it when it was actually ready, I think there would be much less complaining.

I'm gonna go ahead and posit a different explanation. Tesla touted FSD for the hype. They knew it wouldn't be easy. But that's not the point. Hype leads to sales. Early adopters and techies love hype and love the idea of FSD.
Here we are 6 years later and Tesla has reached mass market and nobody buys a Tesla for FSD. OK maybe a few do. FSD keeps getting delayed and their sales are through the roof. Why should they care?

 

[diplomat33]

I'm gonna go ahead and posit a different explanation. Tesla touted FSD for the hype. They knew it wouldn't be easy. But that's not the point. Hype leads to sales. Early adopters and techies love hype and love the idea of FSD.
Here we are 6 years later and Tesla has reached mass market and nobody buys a Tesla for FSD. OK maybe a few do. FSD keeps getting delayed and their sales are through the roof. Why should they care?

I think there is some truth to that. Certainly, FSD does create hype and early adopters and techies love the idea of FSD. But it is also true that Elon has claimed multiple times that FSD was basically a solved problem. So I do think there is an element of Elon misjudging how long FSD would take to actually solve.

 

[2101Guy]

I think there is some truth to that. Certainly, FSD does create hype and early adopters and techies love the idea of FSD. But it is also true that Elon has claimed multiple times that FSD was basically a solved problem. So I do think there is an element of Elon misjudging how long FSD would take to actually solve.

This is what I have a hard time believing. Other examples: As engaged as he is with the operations of Tesla, are we REALLY supposed to think he tweeted out that airbag activation via airbag will happen with a over the air push/update would happen, without knowing there was/is no switch (behind the airbag) to even get pushed? And almost a year later...NOTHING on the topic?
Do we REALLY think that Elon...as genius as he is...REALLY thought a person would literally be able to summon a Tesla ACROSS THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WITH NO ONE IN THE CAR by 2017?

Did he REALLY believe that a Robotaxi service would be a REAL thing in 2019? Empty cars picking up and delivering people? You ACTUALLY think that he truly believed those things?

..

 

[diplomat33]

This is what I have a hard time believing. Other examples: As engaged as he is with the operations of Tesla, are we REALLY supposed to think he tweeted out that airbag activation via airbag will happen with a over the air push/update would happen, without knowing there was/is no switch (behind the airbag) to even get pushed? And almost a year later...NOTHING on the topic?
Do we REALLY think that Elon...as genius as he is...REALLY thought a person would literally be able to summon a Tesla ACROSS THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WITH NO ONE IN THE CAR by 2017?

Did he REALLY believe that a Robotaxi service would be a REAL thing in 2019? Empty cars picking up and delivering people? You ACTUALLY think that he truly believed those things?

..

Yes, I think it is possible that Elon did truly believe it in his head. Yes, Elon is a genius in some areas but that does not mean he has common sense in everything. I think Elon is more of a visionary. He is great at conceptualizing things that don't exist yet but I think he is poor at execution. So I think it is entirely possible he has this big idea of a future with personal cars that can drive themselves everywhere with just vision. The FSD would be cheap so it could easily go on millions of cars, and it would be generalized, so it would work everywhere without pre-mapping or special instructions. It's a great concept. But he has no experience with actually developing autonomous driving. So it very likely he failed to grasp the actual challenges in executing the vision.

 

[Dan D.]

are we REALLY supposed to think he tweeted out that airbag activation via airbag will happen with a over the air push/update would happen, without knowing there was/is no switch (behind the airbag) to even get pushed? And almost a year later...NOTHING on the topic?

Horn activation is what you meant to say, but I get your point.

 

[qdeathstar]

Why not use arbitration clause in your contract?
At least for your Model Y, Tesla promised to deliver "automatic driving on city streets" or "autosteer on city streets" "this year" when you bought it.
Seems pretty clear cut to me.

*subject to validation

 

[bradtem]

The big problem is that the most you could likely get out of a complaint would be a refund, plus interest. And on giving you the refund they would also remove the EAP features, though you could buy them for $6K, maybe you could get a deal on them. So it would not be much of a lawsuit, you would need a class action where they had to offer the refund to everybody. But right now I am not sure how many would claim it.

While Musk regularly predicts FSD will arrive this year, the written statements from Tesla don't say that so you would have to convince the court Musk was making a promise, rather than just making a prediction or expressing a hope. Hard challenge to prove. I think you could make a claim that autosteer on city streets has been "coming soon" for much longer than any reasonable definition of soon.

And get your refund.

To get more you would have to demonstrate, "I never would have bought a Tesla if i didn't expect I would get FSD soon" and then they might buy back your car. But I think this would be hard to prove.

But if they are forced into refunds, I think they will be able to stop most people from getting them. I only paid $2K for FSD, do it's barely worth it. They would sweeten the pot for people who don't refund, like rush up a new feature available only to those refund, an actual useful feature, not smart summon or other useless stuff. They would promise this for the future (but actually have to deliver it.)

So it's not clear what you would get.

 

[Daniel in SD]

*subject to validation

Not for 2020 buyers, it said coming this year. You're thinking pre-2019 buyers who were promised driverless operation but might never get it as long as Tesla keeps validating the software (I'm imagining an intern still working on HW3 FSD in 2030).

 

[johnnycnote]

I believe one needs to make a distinction between the FSD contract terms and typical marketing hype

 

[qdeathstar]

Not for 2020 buyers, it said coming this year. You're thinking pre-2019 buyers who were promised driverless operation but might never get it as long as Tesla keeps validating the software (I'm imagining an intern still working on HW3 FSD in 2030).

I bought my model y and in 2020 and I’m pretty sure it had the disclaimer. Do you have a screenshot of the order page?

 

[Daniel in SD]

I bought my model y and in 2020 and I’m pretty sure it had the disclaimer. Do you have a screenshot of the order page?

This is from January 2020. In June 2020 it just said "upcoming." In September it was back to "coming later this year" but had been downgraded to "autosteer on city streets" instead of "automatic driving on city streets" There are actually more variations than I thought!
Anyway you need to use the wayback machine to figure out which version of FSD you bought:

Design Your Model 3 | Tesla

Design and order your Tesla Model 3, the car of the future. Learn about lease, loan and cash payment options, warranties, electric vehicle incentives, gasoline savings and more.

web.archive.org

 

[Twiglett]

meh
That whole gotta drive super close to the car in front thing is just personal.
So what if someone gets in front of you on the road, will you get to your destination .5 of second later and park next to the guy who "got in front".
After years of a 25 mile commute and recognizing folks in "my" parking lot at work, I found that we were all walking from the parking lot to office around about the same time.
Now I just set AP on 4-5 and relax.
Also remember an office mate doing the "stop others from cutting in" macho thing. He got into an accident because the other driver expected him to let them in, but he didn't and they smashed into each other. Sure, it was the other persons fault, but slowing down to let them in would have meant both being able to get to work on time and not having cars in for repairs.
All for making sure nobody gets in front - pointless.
As for class action suit because you can't get into a beta program - also, meh

 

[boonedocks]

This is where the argument falls apart. I had FSD beta on my previous MSP, and it is, in no way, a benefit. You have to watch it like a hawk, it drives (and still does, from videos) like a nervous teenager just learning to drive. It's at best a parlor trick to show friends while you watch it spin the wheel and do its thing, and it's thanks to the investment of time and energy and bug reports and videos of a small fraction of those thousands of beta testers that the software is improving gradually. When it actually is smooth and safe and a true benefit - when my car can come pick me up or allow me to read while it takes me to work, then I will want it. In the meantime, I haven't even bothered requesting FSD beta on my Plaid, despite paying for FSD. It's just extra work.

truth

People might not want to acknowledge that post as truth but it is. I am a tried and true TeslaFanBoy but the current state / cost / lack of transferability / resale value / etc etc etc is really beyond ridiculous. (and I have paid for it 4 times now )

 

[dcesq06]

The big problem is that the most you could likely get out of a complaint would be a refund, plus interest. And on giving you the refund they would also remove the EAP features, though you could buy them for $6K, maybe you could get a deal on them. So it would not be much of a lawsuit, you would need a class action where they had to offer the refund to everybody. But right now I am not sure how many would claim it.

While Musk regularly predicts FSD will arrive this year, the written statements from Tesla don't say that so you would have to convince the court Musk was making a promise, rather than just making a prediction or expressing a hope. Hard challenge to prove. I think you could make a claim that autosteer on city streets has been "coming soon" for much longer than any reasonable definition of soon.

And get your refund.

To get more you would have to demonstrate, "I never would have bought a Tesla if i didn't expect I would get FSD soon" and then they might buy back your car. But I think this would be hard to prove.

But if they are forced into refunds, I think they will be able to stop most people from getting them. I only paid $2K for FSD, do it's barely worth it. They would sweeten the pot for people who don't refund, like rush up a new feature available only to those refund, an actual useful feature, not smart summon or other useless stuff. They would promise this for the future (but actually have to deliver it.)

So it's not clear what you would get.

Proving that you wouldn't have bought a Tesla if you had known that FSD would be significantly delayed isn't any more difficult than stating as such under oath. (And, the price of FSD for many - in comparison to the cost of the car - would support the importance you attached to the car having that feature.)

IF there was a lawsuit, IF the case was certified as a class, and IF the case actually proceeded to trial instead of settling (all very big IFs), then it would be relatively easy to convince a jury that you probably wouldn't have bought a Tesla if not for the promise of FSD. I think that is the least of the issues with pursuing a lawsuit.

 

[qdeathstar]

This is from January 2020. In June 2020 it just said "upcoming." In September it was back to "coming later this year" but had been downgraded to "autosteer on city streets" instead of "automatic driving on city streets" There are actually more variations than I thought!
Anyway you need to use the wayback machine to figure out which version of FSD you bought:

Design Your Model 3 | Tesla

Design and order your Tesla Model 3, the car of the future. Learn about lease, loan and cash payment options, warranties, electric vehicle incentives, gasoline savings and more.

web.archive.org

View attachment 847865View attachment 847866

Yea, right here is the part I was talking about…

“ The activation and use of these
features are dependent on achieving reliability far
in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by
billions of miles of experience,”

Validation…..

 

[Daniel in SD]

Yea, right here is the part I was talking about…

“ The activation and use of these
features are dependent on achieving reliability far
in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by
billions of miles of experience,”

Validation…..

My interpretation is that's only for driverless operation. Clearly none of the actually released features has reliability far in excess of human drivers so your interpretation doesn't make much sense. I agree though that might be what Tesla would try to argue if you take them to arbitration. I've never heard Tesla claim that the released stoplight and stop sign detection has reliability far in excess of human drivers.

 

[newcarbuyer123]

Do we REALLY think that Elon...as genius as he is...REALLY thought a person would literally be able to summon a Tesla ACROSS THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WITH NO ONE IN THE CAR by 2017?

Did he REALLY believe that a Robotaxi service would be a REAL thing in 2019? Empty cars picking up and delivering people? You ACTUALLY think that he truly believed those things?

No, he didn't believe it. But it's really cool to imagine it and even cooler to get lots of other people to believe it.

 

[newcarbuyer123]

Yes, I think it is possible that Elon did truly believe it in his head. Yes, Elon is a genius in some areas but that does not mean he has common sense in everything. I think Elon is more of a visionary. He is great at conceptualizing things that don't exist yet but I think he is poor at execution. So I think it is entirely possible he has this big idea of a future with personal cars that can drive themselves everywhere with just vision. The FSD would be cheap so it could easily go on millions of cars, and it would be generalized, so it would work everywhere without pre-mapping or special instructions. It's a great concept. But he has no experience with actually developing autonomous driving. So it very likely he failed to grasp the actual challenges in executing the vision.

The name 'autopilot' itself is a marketing ploy. It's easy to convince a non skeptical reporter you've just given drivers the same capability as a pilot of a jumbo jet! Sounds super cool and transformative. In practical terms it's apples and oranges for reasons that are self evident.

 

[bradtem]

Proving that you wouldn't have bought a Tesla if you had known that FSD would be significantly delayed isn't any more difficult than stating as such under oath. (And, the price of FSD for many - in comparison to the cost of the car - would support the importance you attached to the car having that feature.)

IF there was a lawsuit, IF the case was certified as a class, and IF the case actually proceeded to trial instead of settling (all very big IFs), then it would be relatively easy to convince a jury that you probably wouldn't have bought a Tesla if not for the promise of FSD. I think that is the least of the issues with pursuing a lawsuit.

I am not sure what you are basing this idea that all you have to do is swear an oath that you wouldn't have bought it and you would get a refund on the car. Can you cite the caselaw?

You don't testify in front of a jury in a class action case. And you don't take anything to court just over the price of a car. The legal fees will be more than the price of the car.