Feeling less and less comfortable

[Karen in MN]

I'd also point out that there is lots of FUD on these type of forums.

I decided to wait for a 3 (S doesn't fit in my garage).

I've been browsing web forums for both Honda & Toyota cars and I see lots of complaints and even cars returned under lemon laws.

There are always going to be outliers.

True enough. I have really loved my Toyotas and been quite happy with the dealerships, but sometimes people get unlucky.

 

[MSullivan]

Some people are put off by the fact that they include the bigger battery but don't let you use it. That is a silly position. If they said "OK, you can have it for free" then they would never sell another 75.
Tesla thinks out of the box and does things Detroit would never do.
If you were on the fence between a V6 and a V8 and they said "Just buy the V6, we include two extra cylinders that are turned off, if you decide you need it we will turn them on for a fee" you would be thrilled at your new option.

 

[Karen in MN]

I think maybe the tech was trying to talk about the side impact pole test and the story got confused somehow?

If you watch the Model X unveiling event video (there's one on the Tesla X site, and I think several on YouTube,) Elon did talk about four inches in the context of crash safety:

The X apparently only allows four inches of penetration into the cabin on the standard side impact pole test, while the best Tesla could find in the results of other SUVs was eight inches.

Crash safety is a confusing mess, with different things desirable in different circumstances - you want the slowest acceleration for the people inside, but you also want the least physical penetration into the cabin structure. So for maximum survivability, you want big zones outside the cabin that crush to absorb energy, and then an ultra rigid cabin that holds its shape and keeps everything out.

Very interesting and good thoughts. I will watch the release video.

Crash safety, last I looked at it in-depth, was very misleading. It seems they test little cars against little car impacts, as I recall. I live in Minnesota and when I first moved to the burbs, I would drive my sedan in the snow slowly and carefully, and I'd be next to these huge SUVs going 80 in a blizzard because they had 4-wheel drive. I was really scared (I had a 1 yo in the car). That's what got me into my Lexus RX300, greater impact protection.

 

[Karen in MN]

Definitely it is worthwhile to drive one for a while before buying. Turo has Tesla in quite a few locations, and at least two in Chicago. I do not know about other nearer locations. Many of the issues you discuss will be resolved with a few days driving a Tesla, allowing you to make an informed decision without depending on the views of people like us, , who could be described as biased even though we think we're perfectly objective. I think we are, but it is hard to remain so when we have what most fo us think is the finest automobile in the world. As for the dogs you can put them in an S and see if that works well. if not, the X clearly has more room.

Thanks, you guys are the best salespeople for the car!

 

[Karen in MN]

Some people are put off by the fact that they include the bigger battery but don't let you use it. That is a silly position. If they said "OK, you can have it for free" then they would never sell another 75.
Tesla thinks out of the box and does things Detroit would never do.
If you were on the fence between a V6 and a V8 and they said "Just buy the V6, we include two extra cylinders that are turned off, if you decide you need it we will turn them on for a fee" you would be thrilled at your new option.

Some ideas I just have to sit with a bit and see if they are OK with me. 8^)

 

[Saghost]

I really want the autopilot for when I have to take my 16yo to his piano events downtown - which always seem to be around 5:30. There is just no good route and no good mass transit at that hour (going against traffic and bringing us back home in a timely manner). I do almost anything to not be out driving then. If I can use autopilot to deal with stop and go, it's worth it.

There are still a number of things Autopilot doesn't do well, but it is amazing and quite safe/reliable in stop and go traffic. You need to remember that at low speeds it is just following the car in front (car shown in blue on the display) - so if he does something you don't want to do (turn, merge) you need to intervene.

I found that the closest setting isn't always close enough to stop folks from trying to cut in, but it is close enough to make those attempts risky and jarring (sharp deceleration after they cut in,) so with my new AP driven attitude I leave it set to 3 (distance choices range from 1 to 7) and accept that folks occasionally cut in.

 

[PtG62901]

That's too bad. Like I said, I did know the Toyota guy was a friend we played duplicate bridge with, so I had some comfort in him, his knowledge of the car, and his integrity. Again, it depends on the dealer and who you get.

You play duplicate bridge? I played with my father for years. We had a great time playing duplicate together. What fun.

No matter what you decide, being a bridge player makes you right in my world.

 

[Zythryn]

... It seems they test little cars against little car impacts, as I recall...

All cars are tested against a stationary object.
In a collision with a more massive object, the less massive object will take more damage.
However, the Model S and X are massive cars. There are few passenger vehicles that are heavier.

www.safecar.gov has tons of details about how the tests are conducted.
Likewise, for roll-over chances, no vehicle has as low a chance as the Model S, and I'm betting the only one lower than the X will be the S.

 

[LastGas]

I can imagine that Tesla is very safe. Maybe I mis-heard on 4" intrusion claim, but that was another part of my becoming skeptical.

Let me correct my original comment. While some reports say that the fatal crash occurred at 85 mph, logs showed 74 mph in a 65 zone.

The owner's manual warns: "Traffic-Aware Cruise Control can not detect all objects and may not brake/decelerate for stationary vehicles,...Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to avoid a collision can result in serious injury or death."

I should mention that automatic emergency braking does not apply when the car exceeds 85 mph.

 

[LastGas]

... There are few passenger vehicles that are heavier.
.

The lightest Tesla (S 60) is 1,000 lbs. heavier than my old 1996 Ford Taurus wagon.

 

[Karen in MN]

Definitely it is worthwhile to drive one for a while before buying. Turo has Tesla in quite a few locations, and at least two in Chicago. I do not know about other nearer locations. Many of the issues you discuss will be resolved with a few days driving a Tesla, allowing you to make an informed decision without depending on the views of people like us, , who could be described as biased even though we think we're perfectly objective. I think we are, but it is hard to remain so when we have what most fo us think is the finest automobile in the world. As for the dogs you can put them in an S and see if that works well. if not, the X clearly has more room.

I'm going to have to see if dealer will let me keep one for a day or two when I have time to drive it!

Let me correct my original comment. While some reports say that the fatal crash occurred at 85 mph, logs showed 74 mph in a 65 zone.

The owner's manual warns: "Traffic-Aware Cruise Control can not detect all objects and may not brake/decelerate for stationary vehicles,...Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to avoid a collision can result in serious injury or death."

I should mention that automatic emergency braking does not apply when the car exceeds 85 mph.

I haven't gone over 85 (at least intentionally) for a few years now so I should be OK on that!

 

[Karen in MN]

There are still a number of things Autopilot doesn't do well, but it is amazing and quite safe/reliable in stop and go traffic. You need to remember that at low speeds it is just following the car in front (car shown in blue on the display) - so if he does something you don't want to do (turn, merge) you need to intervene.

I found that the closest setting isn't always close enough to stop folks from trying to cut in, but it is close enough to make those attempts risky and jarring (sharp deceleration after they cut in,) so with my new AP driven attitude I leave it set to 3 (distance choices range from 1 to 7) and accept that folks occasionally cut in.

Interesting, I didn't realize you could control that.

It kind of bugged me on the dash image that you couldn't see more objects behind you. I think that would be a nice feature. I know I can put on the back camera on the ipad, but I might have designed that differently based on my first experience with it.

 

[Electroman]

I really want the autopilot for when I have to take my 16yo to his piano events downtown

Again I have to caution, never use AP in any situation other than highways with atleast half decent lane markings. No back roads, no construction areas etc..

Because often I have seen it is the downtown stretches on the highways are most neglected in terms of upkeep including clear lane markings. As someone suggested, if you can take it for an overnight test drive and check it out, it will be good. But again AP is something you will get comfortable only over a week or two of driving. The first few days are going to very nervous and some people - like my wife - they give up in just one day.

 

[LastGas]

Again I have to caution, never use AP in any situation other than highways with atleast half decent lane markings. No back roads, no construction areas etc..

...

I thought this video gives a good feel of what AP does and doesn't do in normal driving.

 

[mmccord]

Again I have to caution, never use AP in any situation other than highways with atleast half decent lane markings. No back roads, no construction areas etc..

Because often I have seen it is the downtown stretches on the highways are most neglected in terms of upkeep including clear lane markings. As someone suggested, if you can take it for an overnight test drive and check it out, it will be good. But again AP is something you will get comfortable only over a week or two of driving. The first few days are going to very nervous and some people - like my wife - they give up in just one day.

Overkill. AP can be safely used in all sorts of other situations. I have tens of thousands of miles of use on two-lane, undivided roads. If you plan to not pay attention to whats going on, or sit on your hands, then no, you shouldn't use it on those roads. If you plan on being a responsible driver, then go right ahead.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Hello all-

I was thinking very seriously about ordering either an S or X (prefer S driving, but with dogs may be best to go X). However, a number of things are making me re-think.

1. I had to sign a responsibility doc just to test the car. I have never done this before. They told me it was implicit with everyone else when I turned over my driver's license for a test drive. But with more thought, this doesn't seem right.

Tesla has a right to protect itself, they are letting you test drive a very expensive car. I was not asked to sign anything of the sort. Maybe they had some concerns?

2. When I expressed discomfort about the battery pack software upgrade cost of $9000, I was diminished. "Nothing to look at here" "Just like getting a different memory card on your phone" It was rather aggressively dismissed. I don't think it's totally out to lunch, but it is a little unusual seeming to me. More, it was the manner of the "technical expert" or whatever the sales guy was called.

Why would you express discomfort at the software upgrade cost? You are getting what you are paying for, and if you want more you have to pay for it. If you don't like that, buy the higher capacity today.

3. It was impressed upon me that everything is under warranty for a long period of time - yet, I hear about these issues with struts not being under warranty.

Bumper-to-bumper warranty is 4 years or 50,000 miles, whichever occurs first. Drive unit and battery are covered for 8 years unlimited miles, but coverage is limited to those parts specifically and not anything attached such as chargers, charge ports, contactors, etc.

4. I have concerns about absent-mindedly becoming reliant on autopilot. I raises my discomfort when I read about the fatal crash and how it was not disclosed to investors.

Then don't use the damn thing! Stop whining.

 

[Saghost]

Then don't use the damn thing! Stop whining.

Isn't that what internet forums are for?

 

[Pollux]

It's really almost a danger in some ways. It's so close to autopilot, and yet not quite trustable enough.

I'd claim it's "autopilot as defined in the aviation industry", i.e., a tool that can be used under pilot supervision for cruising, following a flight path (road), even landing (auto park). But if you don't supervise the tool, you can still run into a mountain (or off a poorly-defined road).

I'd claim it's NOT "autopilot as the public imagines it to be, kinda like in a science fiction movie", with complete "just forget about it" operation. No one has this yet, not from any manufacturer or even in any research lab or even Google's various (lowish speed) adventures.

I make both claims with the passion of an avid TMC forum reader combined with the hands-on knowledge and keen insights into Autopilot available to all 2013 Model S P85+ operators (a model that predated autopilot by at least a year). So, um, yeah, a grain of salt required here.

Alan

 

[Pollux]

Stop whining.

Pots & kettles.

Alan

 

[Pollux]

I'm going to have to see if dealer will let me keep one for a day or two when I have time to drive it!

Tesla used to have, perhaps still has, a program that let's people take the car for 24 hours.

Alan