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Few thoughts with car back

Hi all,

So after a month I got my 3 back. Front motor, 12V battery and electrical harness fully replaced; all under warranty. Staff at Stockport SC were really apologetic for the delay on getting the parts which is understandable with the ports situation etc. I did mention to them that communication is the main issue but from what I saw waiting to be fixed they seem massively overwhelmed.
Car drives fine; cant say I fully trust it though. It did cross my mind to keep it for another year to see how it goes and if it gives me another reason for a visit to the SC to sell it and go for another EV since there is no going back to ICE for me.
When I discussed this with my wife though she did say that regarding EVs the so called traditional manufacturers don't have any extra experience compared to Tesla. The opposite way most likely. So it would be probably better to stick with it at least till the warranty goes.
So what do you think?
 
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Glan gluaisne

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Sep 11, 2019
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I think there are a few aspects relating to EV specific issues and manufacturers to consider. Whilst it's true that Tesla has more experience than some, there are a few other manufacturers that have been making EVs for several years, like Renault, Nissan, Hyundai and Kia, for example. Hyundai have, like Toyota and a few other manufacturers, been making all-electric drive trains for well over 20 years now, much longer than Tesla.

Also, reading the news articles it seem that it's the people with the expertise that probably matter as much as the manufacturer. Quite a few people have left Tesla, for example, to use the skills they had acquired with other companies. I dare say the same is true for other companies, the good people get poached and move around from one company to another, taking their skills and experience with them.

As far as service support is concerned, I think it hinges far more on the experience and skill level of the local dealer/service centre than it does on the manufacturer. For example, some here have reported that even the staff at Tesla SCs may not know all there is to know, and many only have a year or two of experience with EVs, if that.

If considering an EV by any of the big manufacturers that seem to be relatively new players in the EV market, I think I'd be most concerned about how they have performed over the last couple of years, rather than which company had been around in the EV business the longest. Toyota, for example, was one of the very first major manufacturers to market pure EVs, 6 years before Tesla was founded, and 12 years before Tesla started selling the Roadster, yet I'd not cite Toyota as being particularly good at making EVs.
 
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Jez_GB

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Dec 28, 2019
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Even if this particular car fails again I'd stick with the brand if Tesla ticks the boxes for you. The likelihood of getting two lemons is very low - I have had my share of issues with Land Rover, but I've stuck with the brand as, for me, it delivers on my needs and I choose to put up with the (bountiful) problems, problems and long spells in the dealership are generally forgotten when I'm using the vehicle for it's intended purpose.
 
Valid points from both of you guys and I do appreciate the feedback. I may exaggerating a bit; could bit a bit stressed due to the circumstances the car broke down and I carry on thinking if the same could happen with my family being in it.
Overall I do like the car and strange as it sounds it is the autopilot that I really enjoy and the savings based on the 30k miles I drive annually. Will be looking for another EV but for the missus :)
 
Hi all,

So after a month I got my 3 back. Front motor, 12V battery and electrical harness fully replaced; all under warranty. Staff at Stockport SC were really apologetic for the delay on getting the parts which is understandable with the ports situation etc. I did mention to them that communication is the main issue but from what I saw waiting to be fixed they seem massively overwhelmed.
Car drives fine; cant say I fully trust it though. It did cross my mind to keep it for another year to see how it goes and if it gives me another reason for a visit to the SC to sell it and go for another EV since there is no going back to ICE for me.
When I discussed this with my wife though she did say that regarding EVs the so called traditional manufacturers don't have any extra experience compared to Tesla. The opposite way most likely. So it would be probably better to stick with it at least till the warranty goes.
So what do you think?
I think that's a smart wife you have there.
 
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GeorgeSymonds

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Mar 16, 2018
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Tesla push the battery and motor really hard and others are much more conservative but its a fari point when you look at Audi and Merc. BMW have had the i3 for years and will have learnt a lot, and the far east companies as others have said have been doing it for a while too. Even Jaguar are now into their 3rd year of production and will have been learning. And they'll all have bought Teslas and stripped them down to work out what's so special.

Following a few other brands the issues tend to be software more than battery or motor related from what I gather, and dealerships being slow to develop the in house skills as GG says. What they are generally better at is manufacturing processes and the rest of the nuts and bolts.

Glad you've got yours back though, I'd just live with it for a while and see how you get on but I can understand the feeling that if you lose confidence in a car it can be difficult to get it back even if its faultless. I've been there (not on a Tesla)
 

Zakalwe

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Oct 16, 2020
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547
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Tesla push the battery and motor really hard and others are much more conservative but its a fari point when you look at Audi and Merc. BMW have had the i3 for years and will have learnt a lot, and the far east companies as others have said have been doing it for a while too. Even Jaguar are now into their 3rd year of production and will have been learning. And they'll all have bought Teslas and stripped them down to work out what's so special.

And yet, Hyundai have had to recall the Kona in October 2020 for a firmware update due to some cars going on fire. They've now issued another recall which will replace the battery back on 82,000 cars after one of the initial recalled cars caught fire.
Hyundai will recall 82,000 Kona EVs to replace batteries.
 
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Adopado

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Aug 19, 2019
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Hi all,

So after a month I got my 3 back. Front motor, 12V battery and electrical harness fully replaced; all under warranty. Staff at Stockport SC were really apologetic for the delay on getting the parts which is understandable with the ports situation etc. I did mention to them that communication is the main issue but from what I saw waiting to be fixed they seem massively overwhelmed.
Car drives fine; cant say I fully trust it though. It did cross my mind to keep it for another year to see how it goes and if it gives me another reason for a visit to the SC to sell it and go for another EV since there is no going back to ICE for me.
When I discussed this with my wife though she did say that regarding EVs the so called traditional manufacturers don't have any extra experience compared to Tesla. The opposite way most likely. So it would be probably better to stick with it at least till the warranty goes.
So what do you think?

Despite the various issues we read about in this forum that affect Tesla's from time to time it is only rarely anything that results in a full breakdown/incapacitation/stranding. The basic drive train is widely regarded as being a Tesla strong point. Just give the car a final warning and threaten it with a damned good thrashing with a large tree branch if it happens again. (No points awarded for spotting the reference here ... should be obvious enough!)
 
I can understand where you are coming from, and I fully believe that this will be my first and last Tesla. Compare the Model 3 with the Merc C class or BMW 5 series which you can pick up for similar prices. The Tesla has the charging network and is, in my opinion, the best EV at the moment. But these companies are not stupid, and will catch up. Their fit and finish is much better, and when you sit in a BMW/Merc, you feel like you are in command, whereas in a Tesla, you feel more like you are a co-commander :D
 
I can understand where you are coming from, and I fully believe that this will be my first and last Tesla.

I suspect, the Model 3 will be many peoples first EV but also their last Tesla.

The former is a tough nut to crack and Tesla is to be commended for their effort, the latter is a easily solvable problem but I suspect the Tesla way will prevent a full solution being realised.
 
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Jez_GB

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Dec 28, 2019
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630
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I can understand where you are coming from, and I fully believe that this will be my first and last Tesla. Compare the Model 3 with the Merc C class or BMW 5 series which you can pick up for similar prices. The Tesla has the charging network and is, in my opinion, the best EV at the moment. But these companies are not stupid, and will catch up. Their fit and finish is much better, and when you sit in a BMW/Merc, you feel like you are in command, whereas in a Tesla, you feel more like you are a co-commander :D

I don't disagree with you at this time. However Tesla are very aware of their shortcomings and are working to fix them - by the time the established German marques catch up on technology & EV knowhow (assuming of course that Tesla advance no further!), we will be enjoying Tesla produced in Germany, by German technicians with Germanic attention to detail and quality... win win!?

Personally, I felt no less in command of my LR than other cars I have driven, unless of course I doubled down on the right stalk ;)
 
And yet, Hyundai have had to recall the Kona in October 2020 for a firmware update due to some cars going on fire. They've now issued another recall which will replace the battery back on 82,000 cars after one of the initial recalled cars caught fire.
Hyundai will recall 82,000 Kona EVs to replace batteries.


Ouch! that is not good. Apparently Hyundai blames LG and the other way around. Are not from LG the packs that are used in the China made 3? Hope no similar issues derive from this...
 
I can understand where you are coming from, and I fully believe that this will be my first and last Tesla. Compare the Model 3 with the Merc C class or BMW 5 series which you can pick up for similar prices. The Tesla has the charging network and is, in my opinion, the best EV at the moment. But these companies are not stupid, and will catch up. Their fit and finish is much better, and when you sit in a BMW/Merc, you feel like you are in command, whereas in a Tesla, you feel more like you are a co-commander :D

I am not sure yet to be honest if it will be my last Tesla. It will be based on so many factors what my next car will be. Charging network is not one of my worries since I believe in the next 5 years the public network will be at least on par with the supercharger network (call me optimistic). FSD, battery tech, maintenance costs and build quality will be my main priorities. I hope that Gigafactory berlin will push hard on some of these.
I believe that in the next couple of years we will witness significant changes in the automotive industry with new players on the rise and old ones gone so who knows what my next car will be ;)
 

Adopado

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Aug 19, 2019
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Glan gluaisne

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Sep 11, 2019
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I suspect, the Model 3 will be many peoples first EV but also their last Tesla.

The former is a tough nut to crack and Tesla is to be commended for their effort, the latter is a easily solvable problem but I suspect the Tesla way will prevent a full solution being realised.

Certainly the case for me. I'd wanted a Tesla for some time, but the Model S and Model X were just too wide to be sensible to drive around here much of the time, so I had to wait for the Model 3 to arrive. In many respects, my experience with the Model 3 is similar to that when I bought a Jaguar XJ-S years ago, as that was also a car I'd dreamed of owning for years, but which ended up being disappointing, although for different, and far more serious, reasons.

The annoying thing is that the Model 3 doesn't have any major problems, just a collection of very irritating issues that don't really look to be that difficult to fix, if there was a will to do so. After 15 months of ownership, I'm just not convinced that there is any will to resolve these issues, the focus seems to be on developing new stuff, that is probably just as imperfect, rather than sort out existing stuff properly. Perhaps understandable; once Tesla have sold a car there is nothing in it for them at the moment to put things right retrospectively, at least until they have run out of people queuing up to buy new cars.

For me, the charging network isn't an issue, as we always manage just fine with home and destination charging, even on holidays, and to date I've never used a supercharger anyway.
 

Zakalwe

Member
Oct 16, 2020
511
547
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Ouch! that is not good. Apparently Hyundai blames LG and the other way around. Are not from LG the packs that are used in the China made 3? Hope no similar issues derive from this...


Different cell type (Kona uses pouches compared to Tesla's cells), possible different chemistry, different BMS, cooling etc etc. The Tesla battery management system is probably one of the best out there. They've also got battery cooling nailed.

It just goes to show the gap between Tesla and the others at the moment, especially in batteries, efficiency and motor technology. They've been at this for nearly a decade now and that's a massive gap to bridge.

Professor John Kelly's Youtube channel is a real goldmine. Bear in mind that this is from a 5 year old car, but is really shows some of the stuff that Tesla is doing that is way ahead of the competition.

 

Glan gluaisne

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The thing that interests me is that Tesla started working on EV drive trains long after other big manufacturers had invested large sums on them, and had brought products to market, yet still managed to quickly bring cars to market.

As far as motors go, Tesla managed to do something that other manufactures had steered away from, on the basis that the manufacturing process was too difficult, when they came up with the synchronous reluctance motor in the Model 3 and newer Model S and X (earlier cars used fairly generic induction motors, as do some other EVs).

In some ways, the synchronous reluctance motor has some of the manufacturing challenges of a Halbach array PM motor, in that it carefully controls and concentrates the magnetic field, making it more efficient, and more readily controlled to some degree. I built a Halbach array PM motor around 15 years ago, and it was a hellishly difficult thing to assemble, and the magnet array in that has some similarities with the arrays used in the present Tesla SRM. I remember that it took me around a week to get all the neodymium magnets bonded in, because the arrangement is such that they are all trying to push themselves away from where you want them to be, not something that's easy to do in mass production. Back when CSIRO came up with the ~98.4% efficient Halbach array PM motor back in 1997, overcoming the challenges in manufacturing the things was the key reason their design never really became a major commercial success. The motor I built in 2005 was pretty much a direct copy of that CSIRO motor.

One issue manufacturers have is that there is a lot of intellectual property surrounding EV technology, and by the time Tesla came into existence a lot of the basic stuff needed was already under patent protection. I suspect that this may have been the thing that triggered Tesla to adopt their approach to patents and access to technology. Some of what Tesla have done has been significantly better, just because they chose not to go and buy someone else's products, but this hasn't always been the case. For example, the early Teslas didn't really have anything ground breaking as far as the drive train was concerned. They used off-the-shelf batteries, pretty much off-the-shelf induction motor technology and standard variable frequency drive technology. Their initial advantage came mainly because they went with a clean sheet of paper design for the Model S, and that allowed them to really think outside the box in terms of component packaging.

This was way different to every other car manufacturer, as they always work by making incremental changes to existing known configurations. Although most EVs now use the skateboard layout, it was Tesla that came up with it, together with using thousands of small cells, all interconnected with fuse wires, and with a clever liquid cooling system. They didn't so much invent stuff, as both take advantage of the properties of existing products and then apply some really innovative thinking in the way they packaged them in their design. Where other manufacturers went for the largest prismatic cells available, and then found that both compressing the cells and cooling them (both essential) was challenging, Tesla saw that cylindrical laptop cells were compressed by design and had a large surface area to volume ratio, making them easier to cool/heat.

The big question is whether Tesla's disruptive approach will cause other manufacturers to tear up their long standing incremental design process or not. There were signs that BMW were doing this with the i3 and i8, but it seems they've now reversed that decision with the iX series. Many EVs around are big compromises, using existing ICE vehicle platforms, with EV components shoe horned in, something that's never likely to work well.
 

M3noob

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Aug 22, 2019
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I can understand where you are coming from, and I fully believe that this will be my first and last Tesla. Compare the Model 3 with the Merc C class or BMW 5 series which you can pick up for similar prices. The Tesla has the charging network and is, in my opinion, the best EV at the moment. But these companies are not stupid, and will catch up. Their fit and finish is much better, and when you sit in a BMW/Merc, you feel like you are in command, whereas in a Tesla, you feel more like you are a co-commander :D

Just don't mention the war
 
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Different cell type (Kona uses pouches compared to Tesla's cells), possible different chemistry, different BMS, cooling etc etc. The Tesla battery management system is probably one of the best out there. They've also got battery cooling nailed.

It just goes to show the gap between Tesla and the others at the moment, especially in batteries, efficiency and motor technology. They've been at this for nearly a decade now and that's a massive gap to bridge.

Professor John Kelly's Youtube channel is a real goldmine. Bear in mind that this is from a 5 year old car, but is really shows some of the stuff that Tesla is doing that is way ahead of the competition.


Great explanation and very Zen, a bit like Bob Ross explaining how an EV motor works :D
 
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Zakalwe

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Oct 16, 2020
511
547
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The thing that interests me is that Tesla started working on EV drive trains long after other big manufacturers had invested large sums on them, and had brought products to market, yet still managed to quickly bring cars to market.

As far as motors go, Tesla managed to do something that other manufactures had steered away from, on the basis that the manufacturing process was too difficult, when they came up with the synchronous reluctance motor in the Model 3 and newer Model S and X (earlier cars used fairly generic induction motors, as do some other EVs).

In some ways, the synchronous reluctance motor has some of the manufacturing challenges of a Halbach array PM motor, in that it carefully controls and concentrates the magnetic field, making it more efficient, and more readily controlled to some degree. I built a Halbach array PM motor around 15 years ago, and it was a hellishly difficult thing to assemble, and the magnet array in that has some similarities with the arrays used in the present Tesla SRM. I remember that it took me around a week to get all the neodymium magnets bonded in, because the arrangement is such that they are all trying to push themselves away from where you want them to be, not something that's easy to do in mass production. Back when CSIRO came up with the ~98.4% efficient Halbach array PM motor back in 1997, overcoming the challenges in manufacturing the things was the key reason their design never really became a major commercial success. The motor I built in 2005 was pretty much a direct copy of that CSIRO motor.

One issue manufacturers have is that there is a lot of intellectual property surrounding EV technology, and by the time Tesla came into existence a lot of the basic stuff needed was already under patent protection. I suspect that this may have been the thing that triggered Tesla to adopt their approach to patents and access to technology. Some of what Tesla have done has been significantly better, just because they chose not to go and buy someone else's products, but this hasn't always been the case. For example, the early Teslas didn't really have anything ground breaking as far as the drive train was concerned. They used off-the-shelf batteries, pretty much off-the-shelf induction motor technology and standard variable frequency drive technology. Their initial advantage came mainly because they went with a clean sheet of paper design for the Model S, and that allowed them to really think outside the box in terms of component packaging.

This was way different to every other car manufacturer, as they always work by making incremental changes to existing known configurations. Although most EVs now use the skateboard layout, it was Tesla that came up with it, together with using thousands of small cells, all interconnected with fuse wires, and with a clever liquid cooling system. They didn't so much invent stuff, as both take advantage of the properties of existing products and then apply some really innovative thinking in the way they packaged them in their design. Where other manufacturers went for the largest prismatic cells available, and then found that both compressing the cells and cooling them (both essential) was challenging, Tesla saw that cylindrical laptop cells were compressed by design and had a large surface area to volume ratio, making them easier to cool/heat.

The big question is whether Tesla's disruptive approach will cause other manufacturers to tear up their long standing incremental design process or not. There were signs that BMW were doing this with the i3 and i8, but it seems they've now reversed that decision with the iX series. Many EVs around are big compromises, using existing ICE vehicle platforms, with EV components shoe horned in, something that's never likely to work well.


The skateboard concept was around long before Tesla. AFAIK, GM developed the idea in 2002 with their Hy-Wire concept.
Tesla are very good however at finding the optimal solution and putting that into practice very quickly. This comes from Musk's management strategy. He did the same thing in SpaceX by questioning bespoke deign practices and adopting off-the-shelf components. For example, SpaceX's adoption of the Ethernet standard for device communication inside their booster and using off-the-shelf Ethernet wiring instead of bespoke milspec wiring. Their mindset also allows them to move FAST.

When you look at the traditional car makers designs you can see that they are still thinking like an ICE maker. Big lump of stuff under the bonnet, for example.
wbe-18C0736_344-768x512.jpg


Tesla have jumped further ahead and are now poised to abandon the strict skateboard design with megacastings front and rear and a honeycomb-structure containing the batteries in the middle.

As you point out, it's the same with their IPM-SynRM electric motor. When Sandy Munro first took that motor apart he was clear that they did not know how Tesla were doing what they were doing.Munro had never seen a Halbach array quite like what Tesla had.
 
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