Few thoughts with car back

[Neilio]

I suspect, the Model 3 will be many peoples first EV but also their last Tesla.

The former is a tough nut to crack and Tesla is to be commended for their effort, the latter is a easily solvable problem but I suspect the Tesla way will prevent a full solution being realised.

Unless their game is upped then sadly this is me at the moment. I actually love my model 3. The performance is very good for such a heavy car and it's a decent drive.

I just realise now things I took for granted: reliability, decent headlights, A good entertainment system and Nav (Despite what the perception is, Teslas is pretty weak compared to the competition who have better user interfaces, more customisation and more often than not Android auto compatibility). Service is hit and miss but that's the same for all manufacturers. I come from a Merc so I'm used to the dealers treating me like a king and the service centres treating me like a nuisance. I just expected something more from Tesla than I got. The weak points are too numerous and important (to me) to ignore.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Different cell type (Kona uses pouches compared to Tesla's cells), possible different chemistry, different BMS, cooling etc etc. The Tesla battery management system is probably one of the best out there. They've also got battery cooling nailed.

Tesla have had the debacle of batterygate and chargegate and the latest batteries in the MIC SR+ are not being praised anywhere. One person in Germany claims they've fixed that with software but I've not seen anyone else say it has.

Then there's a youtube review on the e-tron by a Tesla dealer and one of the striking observations he made is the e-tron seems to charge faster than a P100D MX because it can maintain a higher charge rate longer. We then have the Taycan that smashed the EPA figures in the real world and can deliver performance time and again, so presumably they've something sorted that Tesla hasn't.

Tesla is certainly one of the leaders, so I'd agree on that, I'm just not sure using a rounded, all things considered perspective it is particularly ahead of anyone else, and its incredibly disappointing to see the new MS and MX using the same battery tech as the outgoing model, still using 400Vs. and only the Plaid+ is likely to move the game on and at some considerable price.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Having looked at a Tesla BMS shunt close up, there's nothing particular special about it, in fact it isn't as efficient or smart as some of the more recent BMS systems, in that it's still uses shunt resistors, not some form of cell group to cell group charge transfer balancing. I suspect quite a few other manufacturers are still using shunt balancing, as it's pretty well-proven, but it's far from being cutting edge.

The only part of the BMS that users really get to see the impact of is the SoC measurement/estimation stuff, and that's a universally difficult thing to do, irrespective of the cell balancing system used, as there are several variables that impact both the measurement and the way that charging is controlled. I suspect that the current issues being reported regarding the MiC Model 3s are from an abundance of caution by Tesla, given that they haven't got anywhere near as much experience with these cells as they have with the Panasonic cells. In all probability things will improve just from software updates, that unlock more of the battery pack capability, once there's enough data from early customer cars to show whether this is a sensible thing to do.

 

[SpanishJ0n]

My 2c. Tesla should be commended for what they have done. If it wasn't for them big German auto would still be dragging their heels as profit is there only concern IMHO. I don't think they care a fig for the environment, and are only now starting to 'catch up' (their words) because they simply didn't have any choice. Stick with Tesla.

Spanish

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

My 2c. Tesla should be commended for what they have done. If it wasn't for them big German auto would still be dragging their heels as profit is there only concern IMHO. I don't think they care a fig for the environment, and are only now starting to 'catch up' (their words) because they simply didn't have any choice. Stick with Tesla.

Spanish

Which, the German company that invested in Tesla to make it happen and provided a variety of components to get them off the ground (Merc) or the German company that introduced full electric cars at the same time as the Model S (BMW)?

 

[Zakalwe]

Which, the German company that invested in Tesla to make it happen and provided a variety of components to get them off the ground (Merc) or the German company that introduced full electric cars at the same time as the Model S (BMW)?

Yep Thems the ones. The same ones that stood by and watched Grohmann Engineering get bought up by Tesla. The same ones that had contracts with Grohmann Engineering for battery assembly lines and who then struggled to assemble batteries because Tesla cancelled their contracts.
The same ones that watched another supplier (ATW Assembly) get into financial trouble and watched Tesla swoop in and rescue it. ATW also supplied Mercedes, BMW and VW with battery assembly lines.

 

[rincewind]

Efficiency wise, Hyundai are really good matching or bettering Tesla and I must say I really like the new Ionic 5 that's just been released. I currently have an M3P which I love but I find it too noisy at motorway speeds and as Glan says, the interface (especially the phone) could see some serious improvement. Hyundai IONIQ 5 | The Electric Car Revolution Is Here

 

[Neilio]

My 2c. Tesla should be commended for what they have done. If it wasn't for them big German auto would still be dragging their heels as profit is there only concern IMHO. I don't think they care a fig for the environment, and are only now starting to 'catch up' (their words) because they simply didn't have any choice. Stick with Tesla.

Spanish

But catching up they are. If Tesla don’t improve their build quality and stop messing around with AI solutions that don’t work to problems that have already been fixed then catch up they will, and quickly. When the masses adopt EVs, at this rate it won’t be Tesla’s they are buying

 

[gangzoom]

But catching up they are. If Tesla don’t improve their build quality and stop messing around with AI solutions that don’t work to problems that have already been fixed then catch up they will, and quickly. When the masses adopt EVs, at this rate it won’t be Tesla’s they are buying

The issue is for Tesla the software and 'quirks' are their USP. They have zero chance of competing with say Toyota on reliability zero.

Our X has had issue ranging from key fobs dying, to doors not opening and collapse of the front suspension. Our Lexus has needed a wind screen top up only in comparison.

However if we were to drop down to a one car family today, the Lexus will be the one going not the X.

My biggest issue with the 3 is its lack of anything truly special, where is all stuff that makes love the X despite its reliability issues- powered doors, the massive front windowscreen, a central aisle down the car......at least the software side is still there, but take that away and what are you left with?

Whats the USP of the Y versus the Hyundai Ionqi 5, which we all know is cheaper, better built, and will be more efficient.

If Tesla stopped innovations with software and keep on been brave with design they will loss their brand attraction very quickly.

For me Tesla = Innovation, that is their USP. Yes they need to be more reliable but not at the cost of innovation.

Elon has gambled everything on FSD, the Beta release is actually very promising. Tesla will thrive if FSD can be pulled off.

 

[Neilio]

The issue is for Tesla the software and 'quirks' are their USP. They have zero chance of competing with say Toyota on reliability zero.

Our X has had issue ranging from key fobs dying, to doors not opening and collapse of the front suspension. Our Lexus has needed a wind screen top up only in comparison.

However if we were to drop down to a one car family today, the Lexus will be the one going not the X.

My biggest issue with the 3 is its lack of anything truly special, where is all stuff that makes love the X despite its reliability issues- powered doors, the massive front windowscreen, a central aisle down the car......at least the software side is still there, but take that away and what are you left with?

Whats the USP of the Y versus the Hyundai Ionqi 5, which we all know is cheaper, better built, and will be more efficient.

If Tesla stopped innovations with software and keep on been brave with design they will loss their brand attraction very quickly.

For me Tesla = Innovation, that is their USP. Yes they need to be more reliable but not at the cost of innovation.

Elon has gambled everything on FSD, the Beta release is actually very promising. Tesla will thrive if FSD can be pulled off.

Innovation is fine, if it works.

 

[Durzel]

Which, the German company that invested in Tesla to make it happen and provided a variety of components to get them off the ground (Merc) or the German company that introduced full electric cars at the same time as the Model S (BMW)?

It’s hard to argue the i3 as being anything other than BMW dipping their toe in the water though. It was, if I recall, even cancelled at one point only to be un-cancelled (?).

The i8 is a hybrid, lest we forget.

I don’t think we would’ve seen the other models, or anything like the same kind of expediency had Tesla not shown that there was a voracious appetite for these cars though.

 

[Durzel]

The issue is for Tesla the software and 'quirks' are their USP. They have zero chance of competing with say Toyota on reliability zero.

Our X has had issue ranging from key fobs dying, to doors not opening and collapse of the front suspension. Our Lexus has needed a wind screen top up only in comparison.

However if we were to drop down to a one car family today, the Lexus will be the one going not the X.

My biggest issue with the 3 is its lack of anything truly special, where is all stuff that makes love the X despite its reliability issues- powered doors, the massive front windowscreen, a central aisle down the car......at least the software side is still there, but take that away and what are you left with?

Whats the USP of the Y versus the Hyundai Ionqi 5, which we all know is cheaper, better built, and will be more efficient.

If Tesla stopped innovations with software and keep on been brave with design they will loss their brand attraction very quickly.

For me Tesla = Innovation, that is their USP. Yes they need to be more reliable but not at the cost of innovation.

Elon has gambled everything on FSD, the Beta release is actually very promising. Tesla will thrive if FSD can be pulled off.

Agree with what you’ve said there.

The X really is an incredibly futuristic feeling car. When I had one on loan for 3 days people were blown away by the auto doors all round etc. My 4 year old niece absolutely loved it and insisted I pick her up in it from school those 3 days.

As you say the 3 doesn’t have that really, as it was built down to a price compared to the X/S. That being said what it does have is worth the money (to me), and it’s worth remembering there’s a good £40k+ between the cars too.

 

[SmartElectric]

Perhaps understandable; once Tesla have sold a car there is nothing in it for them at the moment to put things right retrospectively, at least until they have run out of people queuing up to buy new cars

? This statement is not logically defensible. Tesla does more after sale than any other car I've ever owned. In 8 years, our Model S has received regular firmware updates and new features. Heck, our car didn't even have user profiles until a year later, and then Tesla added massive sets of innovative features like GPS location garage door and suspension settings among others. Recently, Tesla is recalling the storage module on my 8 year old car to bring it to modern levels of storage, even though our car is operating "better than new".

Ex. Ford saved money on a plastic impeller for it's engine water cooling pump and put the temperature sensor on the cold side of the pump. The plastic impeller broke and my engine seized at 120 km/h and launched me into the ditch. The car was 8 years old and was junked. There was not a single car of the same make/model year on the road within a year of my own car dying, even though it was one of the most popular cars sold in the year I bought it. 100K+ cars junked early due to a 5c part savings compared to a metal impeller.

Tesla is guilty of many things, but they do absolutely "put things right retrospectively", even if it takes a little complaining to get them to do some things. Any claim to the contrary is mistaken and illogical.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

? This statement is not logically defensible. Tesla does more after sale than any other car I've ever owned. In 8 years, our Model S has received regular firmware updates and new features. Heck, our car didn't even have user profiles until a year later, and then Tesla added massive sets of innovative features like GPS location garage door and suspension settings among others. Recently, Tesla is recalling the storage module on my 8 year old car to bring it to modern levels of storage, even though our car is operating "better than new".

Ex. Ford saved money on a plastic impeller for it's engine water cooling pump and put the temperature sensor on the cold side of the pump. The plastic impeller broke and my engine seized at 120 km/h and launched me into the ditch. The car was 8 years old and was junked. There was not a single car of the same make/model year on the road within a year of my own car dying, even though it was one of the most popular cars sold in the year I bought it. 100K+ cars junked early due to a 5c part savings compared to a metal impeller.

Tesla is guilty of many things, but they do absolutely "put things right retrospectively", even if it takes a little complaining to get them to do some things. Any claim to the contrary is mistaken and illogical.

Not sure I get your point, or that it is valid here in the UK (this is the UK and Ireland forum). Here, Tesla are selling cars as fast as they get off the boat. They don't advertise, and don't need to, they have queues of people waiting for cars to be delivered. Buyers accept cars at delivery with glaring faults, and get told to get them fixed later, a process that can take months. In my case I collected the car in November 2019, with glaring paint defects, misaligned glass, leaking rear light units and broken front ball joints. It eventually got fixed in June 2020.

After sales here are a complete joke when compared to just about any other major manufacturer. Service centres are often long distances away (for example, it was a half day trip for me, the three times I needed to get things fixed that were faulty on delivery).


Might be different across the other side of the Atlantic, but I suggest you might want to come and live here and experience the Tesla experience first hand, from the perspective of the members of this forum before expressing a view on what things are like here.